Talk:Catalonia (historic territory)

Added and corrected from Traditional Catalan domain. Toniher 20:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

If Toniher had used a move, it would have been a lot simpler. The history of this article now includes edits done at Traditional Catalan domain as well as edits done on the current title of Catalonia (historic territory). -- RHaworth 15:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * My fault, I overlooked it :-/ Thanks Toniher 09:25, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Catalonia has never been a sovereign country or an independent one for that matter, that is basic history. Stop pushing nationalist mythology.
 * Well, I understand it was a sovereign country as much as Castile, Aragon or Valencia were in former times. Of course, it has never been a modern nation-state. We might discuss about the degrees of sovereignity, or more concretely, practical independence, depending on the timeline, but this does not deny the sentence we are discussing. Best regards. Toniher 23:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It was never a "sobereign country" as Castile or Aragon, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon, the Kigdom was sovereign Catalonia was not. The fact is simple.If you have prove of the contrary please bring it.
 * I know it is a usual confusion. Crown of Aragon != Kingdom of Aragon. The Principality of Catalonia and the Kingdom of Aragon had their own and separate institutions but, for most of the time, the same monarch, who swore their own respective laws. It's the same case for the Kingdom of Valencia, and for some time, the Kingdom of Majorca as well. Toniher
 * With more reason then Catalonia was never a sobereign country. The soverenignty resided on the king of Aragon not in Catalonia.Once Wales or Scotland were under the rule of the english kings there weren´t sovereign.
 * Was the Principality of Catalonia under the laws of Kingdom of Aragon? No, it was not. Consider the Catalan constitutions, and even, the origin of one of the dinasty of kings, etc. However, I would try to end up it here with another slightly rewritten version, since I assume this is rather a matter of interpretation than of facts. Toniher 23:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It´s not a matter of interpretation, at least not on my side. You ask me if Catalonia had to abide with the laws of the Kingdom of Aragon and if you just check any historical source it did. Not all of them, only the ones that afected the whole kingdom, but clearly the sovereignty resided in the King of Aragon and not in the "constitutions".
 * Are you sure? Please, provide me the historic sources that state that laws of Kingdom of Aragon were legally applicable and precedent to any of those of the Principality. The monarch, which had the titles of King of Aragon, Count of Barcelona, Sicily, Majorca, etc. etc., yes, could be regarded as ultimate sovereign (and it's more difficult than this - and depending on the epoch), but that is another matter. Toniher 16:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

As for your new correction I find it equally absurd and confusing. Catalonia is not and never was a country by itself. Such preposterous affirmation is coincident with the affirmation founded in that wikipedia article about "country/ies"; claiming that Wales and Scotland are also countries. Go ahead actitudes like this are just making Wikipedia useless as a serious reference page. I´m finding now web pages from universities and professors rejecting Wikipedia as a source in any essay. I thought it was typical collegial elitism but pages like this are making them right
 * Have you looked up «country» in any dictionary? Toniher 16:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * country   ( P )  n. pl. countries 1)A nation or state. 2)The territory of a nation or state; land. 3)The people of a nation or state; populace: The whole country will profit from the new economic reforms. 4)The land of a person's birth or citizenship: Foreign travel is restricted in his country. 5)A region, territory, or large tract of land distinguishable by features of topography, biology, or culture: hill country; Bible country. 6)An area or expanse outside cities and towns; a rural area: a vacation in the country.

Now you will argue that you are referring to the first definition let me guess, to play the game to equal country to nation, but you see in actual Political Geography there are two definitions of Nation. You may indeed think Catalonia is a nation(as a cultural concept) I´m not going to argue about that, but Catalonia is most def not a Nation as a Country because it does not have ultimate sovereignty and never did. Here you have it explained quite simple and clear(http://geography.about.com/cs/politicalgeog/a/statenation.htm). When you add that Catalonia is a "historic country" you know how it sounds in English? it doesn´t sound like you are talking about politics, it sounds like the traveling guide of a place with quaint Inns and ruins to visit.

Redundant pages?
It seems to be a great overlap between this article and History of Catalonia. Shouldn't both be merged? Another possibility is keeping this page as a reference to the tradition of the Catalan nationalist movement, since this seems to be the origin of the page as a split from the Catalonia article, as discussed there. Diego Moya 15:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, I also think there is some redundancy. I consider this article should be somewhat equivalent to Castile one, but also noting the Catalan nationalist implications (as it could also be for the Castilian nationalist ones) which should be further developed in other articles about Catalan nationalism. Catalan traditions would deserve another article by its own. Toniher 19:38, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Principality

 * I made some necessary amendments due to the historical innexactitudes, I´ve tried to respect as much as possible of the originall leaving out most of the anacronic interpretations of Medieval law --The Principality of Catalonia (Catalan: el Principat de Catalunya), or simply the Principality (Catalan: el Principat), is one of the traditional mames of Catalonia. Suposedly its origin was the wedding of the Count of Barcelona Ramón Berenguer with the Princess Petronila, doughter of King Ramiro II of Aragon. The agreement ofr the wedding was done in 1137, but because she was only two years of age the wedding was postponed.The marriage was celebrated in 1151, and Ramón Berenguer count of Barcelona became prince consort and thus the denomination of principality extended later to Catalonia. Catalonia was not a county either, because the County of Barcelona only comprised part of it.

The oldest formal reference dates back to 1350, during the Corts in Perpinyà presided by the king Peter IV of Aragon. However, there seems to be an older reference, in a more informal context, in Ramon Muntaner's chronicles.

The Principality denomination was even used during Bourbonic administration, after the Decretos de Nueva Planta, until the 19th century. Afterwards, Republican movements favoured its abandonment because it is historically somehow related to monarchy.

Current Constitution of Spain or the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia do not mention this denomination, but it is presently quite popular, especially among Catalan nationalists and independentists.


 * Thanks for the contribution. Could you pass a reference to what you have added about the Principality? Toniher 23:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sure. Most of this internet sources are only in Spanish or Catala but I got some in English (http://libro.uca.edu/chaytor/hac4.htm) ,(http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biografia/r/ramon_berenguer_iv.htm) ,(http://www.tvcatalunya.com/historiesdecatalunya/personatges/per105970452.htm).
 * Thanks. I will check them when I have a little more time. In any case, I meant the origin of the denomination, not the very historical events. Toniher 16:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I have not found any reference in the links above about the origin of the denomination. What you say can make sense, just pass suitable references. I have ommited the proper origin sentence (since it is not clear in the ref of the article, either). I would also look for it. Toniher 09:24, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * More references (http://www.lalonjeta.net/utiles/El%20Mirador.pdf)(http://web.udg.es/hcj/text/historia_del_dret/Textos_%20HDE_III.pdf)(http://www.crea.es/articulos.nsf/0/058cb94e2e3039cd802566c100433ecc?OpenDocument) If you are looking for a manuscript from the XII century in witch it´s explained exactly why - 200 years latter - people started using "Principado de Cataluña" tell me about it when you find it.
 * Good. One of the latter links is what I was asking for :) Toniher 08:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Barça
I might like or not the the fact that a sport team is regarded as a national symbol, but this is simply true nowadays, and not only for Barça... These things would be better discussed in Barça entry. Of course, there are political and historical motivations behind. However, I think this feeling is not currently as strong as it was, for instance, 40 years ago. Toniher 23:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I´m sorry the original connotation of "is more than a club"

was referred to socioeconomical reasons. Maybe now between nationalist, and since it´s last presiden is interested more in politics than in sport, maybe the connotation has changed. Anyway how many catalan futboll players play in the Barcelona and how many foreign ones? how many of the thousands of Barsa´s followers through Spain such as Spain´s president Zapatero consider the Barcelona Catalonia national team? and the foreing followers and international sport press?
 * I do not want to question whether it makes sense or not. I have my opinion, of course, but it does not matter. Barça was, for many people during Francoism, associated to an expression of Catalanism or anti-Francoism. Nowadays, not only because of the current presidency but also before, has continued been usually associated to this (possibly in a minor degree). Many foreigners simply know Catalonia because of Barça, etc. Toniher

Biased map
To me, this map appears to be a bit biased, attempting to depicting Spanish sovereign territory as separte from the rest of the Spanish state. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.165.126.18 (talk • contribs) 18 April 2006.


 * Given that it is an historical map, the problem is a different one: there was no such political entity as Spain at that time! -- Jmabel | Talk 17:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

True there was no such political entity as Spain, so why does the map says "Spain" where Aragon is? It's totally biassed as it clearly separates Spain and Catalonia. Spain should be removed from the map or should be put on bigger fonts in a way that would include Catalonia. (It's not a matter of anti-nationalism, it's about being neutral and accurated) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.138.233.89 (talk • contribs) 25 April 2006.