Talk:Catch and release

POV
This seems heavily tilted in favor of catch-and-release fishing. The addition of arguments against it is needed. Musteval 00:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I've expanded this article quite a bit and I believe it's near to NPOV. Comments? 209.105.198.70 02:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I will remove the NPOV tag within a few days if there are no objections in further discussion. Dave 05:46, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I removed the POV check tag just now. Dave 23:11, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Mortality
The statement made that "A number of scientific studies have shown extremely high survival rates (95%+)[citation needed] for released fish..." seems not to be supported by research done in this area. A review article by S.J. Casselman in July 2005 presents this table based on catch-and-release studies:

Species           N   Days %Mortality  Reference --- Blue catfish      52    3      5.1     Muoneke, 1993 Channel catfish  214    3     19       Ott and Storey, 1993 Channel catfish  704    6     33       Rutledge, 1975 Channel catfish   14   <1      0       Tilyou and Hoenke, 1992 Flathead catfish  52    3     11.5     Muoneke, 1993 Yellow bullhead   20   <1      0       Tilyou and Hoenke, 1992 Muskellunge        3    5     30       Beggs et al., 1980 Northern pike    242   5-16   0-4.8    Burkholder, 1992 Northern pike     94   4-10   6.4      Falk and Gilman, 1975 Northern pike    185    2     1-33     Dubois et al., 1994 Tiger muskellunge 217   1     9.7      Newman and Storck, 1986 Artic grayling   180    2     0.6      Clark, 1991 Artic grayling   158   4-10   5.1      Falk and Gilman, 1975 Atlantic salmon  300  10-14  0.3-5.7   Warner, 1976 Atlantic salmon  149    5      13      Warner, 1978 Atlantic salmon  177   2-5    4-35     Warner and Johnson, 1978 Atlantic salmon 1221   3-14    5.1     Warner, 1979 Atlantic salmon   20           0       Booth et al., 1994 Brook trout      550   7-10   1-57     Shetter and Allison, 1955 Brook trout      806    1     2.6      Shetter and Allison, 1958 Brook trout      630    2     4.3      Nuhfer and Alexander, 1992 Brown trout      490   14    13.5      Hulbert and Engstrom-Heg, 1980 Brown trout      107    1     0.9      Shetter and Allison, 1958 Brown trout      197          0-28     Shetter and Allison, 1955 Brown trout      215   10     3-7      Barwick, 1985 Chinook salmon   888   4-6   22.1      Wertheimer et al., 1989 Chinook salmon   506    5    21-25     Wertheimer, 1988 Chinook salmon   100   1-5    10       Bendock and Alexandersdotitir, 1991 Chinook salmon   245    5    6-11      Bendock and Alexandersdotitir, 1991 Chinook salmon  3618         11.8      Butler and Loeffel, 1972 Chinook salmon    66    2     9.1      Natural Research Consultants, 1989 Coho salmon       85   35   42-55      Milne and Ball, 1956 Coho salmon      147    2    6.8       Natural Research Consultants, 1989 Coho salmon     4861         18.4      Butler and Loeffel, 1972 Coho salmon      384         69.3      Vincent-Lang et al., 1993 Cutthroat trout  652   30 5.11-5.5     Marnell and Hunsaker, 1970 Cutthroat trout  690   30    3.8       Dotson, 1982 Cutthroat trout  509   10    5-73      Hunsaker et al., 1970 Cutthroat trout 72698        0.3       Schill et al., 1986 Cutthroat trout  578    4   1.37-48.5  Titus and Vanicek, 1988 Lake trout       129   4-10  6.98      Falk et al., 1974 Lake trout        67    2   14.9       Loftus et al., 1988 Lake trout        50    2   10         Dextrase and Ball, 1991 Rainbow trout    100  120   95         Mason and Hunt, 1967 Rainbow trout   1000    3    1-10      Klein, 1965 Rainbow trout    159        11-35      Shetter and Allison, 1955 Rainbow trout    300  120   34.5-82    Mason and Hunt, 1967 Rainbow trout     38   10    5-39      Barwick, 1985 Rainbow trout    574    2     5.7-36   Stringer, 1967 Rainbow trout     65  1-2    20        Faccin, 1983 Rainbow trout    346    1     5.2      Shetter and Allison, 1958 Rainbow trout    900   28     2.1      Jenkins, 2003 Rainbow trout    281 29-34   16        Schill, 1996 Striped bass     576    3  1.87-70.39  May, 1990 Striped bass     307    3    38.1      Hysmith et al., 1992 Striped bass     113    3   0-69       Childress, 1989a Striped bass     464   14   16-17      Harrel, 1988 Striped bass     215 30-40  15-29      Diodati, 1991 Striped bass      89   >3   14-67      Bettoli and Osborne, 1998 Striped bass     153    3    6.4       Nelson, 1998 Palmetto bass     89    3    1-29      Childress, 1989a White bass       122    3    0.8       Childress, 1989a Yellow bass        5   <1     60       Tilyou and Hoenke, 1992 Black sea bass    64    2    4.7       Bugley and Shepherd, 1991 Crappie           15   <1     0        Tilyou and Hoenke, 1992 Black crappie    202   <1   19-77      Childress, 1989b White crappie    226  6-11    3        Hubbard and Miranda, 1991 White crappie     69   18    29        Childress, 1989b White crappie     43    3   9.3        Muoneke, 1992a White crappie     13 <504   15.4       Colvin, 1991 Bluegill         170    3  1.1-25.3    Muoneke, 1992b Bluegill         210    3    0-18      Burdick and Wydoski, 1989 Bluegill          75   10   30-88      Siewert and Cave, 1990 Bluegill         200    7    4-14      Barthel et al., 2003 Bluegill         685    3   1.3        Cooke et al., 2003b Pumpkinseed      175    3    0         Cooke et al., 2003b Rock bass         80    5    0         Cooke et al., 2001 Black bass                   5         Lee, 1989 Largemouth bass 1106   1-2  3-16       Bennett et al., 1989 Largemouth bass 3283   <1    14        Schramm et al., 1985 Largemouth bass 3129   28    32        Seidensticker, 1977 Largemouth bass  261   14    19.4      Archer and Loyacano, 1975 Largemouth bass 1351    6    38        Rutledge and Pritchard, 1975 Largemouth bass 1422  7-23   30        May, 1973 Largemouth bass 1863   19    14.3      Welborn and Barkley, 1974 Largemouth bass      14-21   26.7      Schramm et al., 1987 Largemouth bass  285   60    11.2      Pelzman, 1978 Largemouth bass         2     3.2      Hartley and Moring, 1991 Smallmouth bass   70    7    0-11      Clapp and Clark, 1989 Smallmouth bass  634   20   4.2-47.3   Weidlein, 1989 Smallmouth bass         2     8.9      Hartley and Moring, 1991 Smallmouth bass  458          0-8.5    Bennett et al., 1989 Smallmouth bass   61    2     4.9      Jackson and Willis, 1991 Smallmouth bass  238    3     0        Dunmall et al., 2001 Guadalupe bass    85    3    2.4       Muoneke, 1991 Spotted bass      47    3    8.5       Muoneke, 1992a Walleye          180   12    1.1       Fletcher, 1987 Walleye          865    5    40        Goeman, 1991 Walleye           47    3     0        Parks and Kraai, 1991 Walleye         2357    3    21        Fielder and Johnson, 1992 Walleye               14-28  5-16      Payer et al., 1989 Walleye          240    2    0.8       Schaefer, 1989 Walleye          123    1    23        Rowe and Esseltine, 2002 Sauger            74   <1     4        Bettoli et al., 2000 Black drum        19   <1      0       Martin et al., 1987b Black drum       325          0        Martin et al., 1987a Red drum         171   <1     0        Martin et al., 1987b Red drum         121    3    4.13      Matlock et al., 1993 Red drum          38    3   44.7       Childress, 1989a Red drum         968         0.21      Martin et al., 1987a Spotted seatrout 401    7    37        Hegen et al., 1983 Spotted seatrout  43   <1   20-70      Martin et al., 1987b Spotted seatrout  52  7-9    0-56      Matlock and Dailey, 1981 Spotted seatrout   7        17-27      Hegen et al., 1987 Spotted seatrout 124    3  7.29        Matlock et al., 1993 Spotted seatrout 127       16.54       Martin et al., 1987a White seabass    221   90  10          Aalbers et al., 2004

---Arnejohs 12:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Approximately 40% of the studies cited in that table have survival rates very close to 95% or above. There are roughly 150 studies in the table. Hence, about 60 studies (a number?) have reported very high survival rates approaching 95% or above. &mdash; Dave 13:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This is a too simple approach to the problem. Firstly some species are more common than others. Secondly the mortality rate has to be related to the number of days after the catch and release. In many of the studies the number of days are less than one week. This only measure the immediate mortality while most of the catch and release related mortality is believed to be long-term consequences of the rough treatment. Rifts and wounds may expose the fish to fungus and bacteria which may kill the fish after several days, weeks or even longer time. Scientifically the statement in the article therefore is hard to defend or to make it clearer: It is a POV and it is probably incorrect. ---Arnejohs 13:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * So you're saying the statement is true, but only misleading? That's not exactly a ringing endorsement . . . Ruakh 15:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * ? I don’t really see your point. If you read my comment above you will see I classified the statement as a PointOfView which probably is incorrect. How you read this to “true but misleading” is hard for me to understand.---Arnejohs 17:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You misunderstand: I was replying to Dave's comment, not to yours. Ruakh 19:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I am sorry. Thank you for clarifying. --- Arnejohs 19:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No worries. :-) Ruakh 00:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I have now entered the POV check label on the basis of the above discussion. ---Arnejohs 17:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone needs to look at the biological aspect of this situation. When fish get hooked and are being reeled in, they are in the "fight or flight" mode, and are trying to swim away for their lives. They do not think "Oh, the fisherman is going to let me go. This is all just a sport. I will give a good struggle for fun." They are fighting for survival. This fight or flight mode (all animals and humans have this too) results in lactic acid fermentation. When too much lactate builds up in an organism, it will die. Even though you release the fish and they swim away and seem fine, you fail to see that they die a few days later due to this lactate buildup.


 * I would like to mention that, sad as the fact may be that some released fish most certainly die of their experience, the survival rate for fish that are not returned to the water is zero (mortality = 100%). I find the "morality" issues raised here to be a bit out of place - surely there might be a morality of fishing (& hunting, etc.) article that could be referred to.  Because the "problem" is the fishing, not the releasing.  And as far as the lactic acid buildup biology, that is the reason for using "robust equipment" and minimising the length of the "fight".  The opposite, using light tackle and maximising the struggle for the "pleasure" of it, results in a fish that is thoroughly exhausted and much less likely to survive.  Any thoughts?  human 00:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure a morality section would be worth including if it weren't that many people think catch-and-release is all hunky dory for the fish. It's reasonable for an article on catch-and-release to discuss the controversy: a lot of scientists have argued on a number of bases that it's not. —RuakhTALK 01:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

POV tag
I have removed the POV-check tag, as it's been attached to the article for months now with no particular change either way. FCYTravis 13:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Pain Studies
Thye referenced articles which the author claims demonstrate pain sensitivity do not show any such thing. They clearly sow taht fish have chemical receptors in their mouths. the rubbing hey exhibit when venom is injected is a reaction to the chemical, not necessarily pain.

It is significant that NO study has shown such behavior when a fish is imapled by a hook. In fact, fish do not have pain receptors in their mouths, hence cannot feel the hook. The physiological reactions cited when fish are caught are actually reactions to being pulled though the water and dissipate very rapidly when pressure is relaxed on the line whether or not the hook is removed.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vintega (talk • contribs).

Recent edits
I canged fishermen to sports fishers because the word fisherman describes a person catching fish for food or for sale, and is distinctly different from a person fishing for recreational purposes.

Fish fight because they feel the pull of the line, not because the hook in their mouth hurts. Millions of fishermen around the world have observed hooked fish not fighting until line pressure is applied to them. I have a science background, I know all about scientific papers etc, but just because this observation is not published in a scientific paper does not make it valid. I will be mentioning it in the article.

Also regarding the article. I have changed it so that it is serving its primary function as a quick reference for people who want to know how to catch and release fish properly. They look it up on Wikipedia and bang, they get quick tips on how to catch and release fish. The detailed information is then below for them to read if they so wish.

Codman 04:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've removed your "Quick Tips for Effective Catch and Release" section, as that's not what an encyclopedia is for (see WP:NOT); however, you may wish to contribute that information to Wikibooks, one of Wikipedia's sister projects: its goal is to make open-content textbooks, which seems to be your goal here. Once there's a Wikibook on the subject, this article can link to it in its "External links" section (by making use of the  template). The full text that I removed is available at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Catch_and_release&diff=111769253&oldid=111757679. —RuakhTALK 06:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I don't agree. I have put these tips under "Catch and Release Techniques"; "Catch and Release Techniques" is a logical sub-section to have in this article, and it is the logical sub-section in which to list the key compoments of catch and release methodology.  I think this is a very reasonable compromise; we must list what the key components of catch and release methodolgy is.  Shortly I will insert weblinks to Triple Grip treble hooks (which are perfect for barbless hook fishing) and Environets.  Cheers, Codman 23:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

For reasons similar to those stated by Codman above, I moved the debate section to the end. Opponents of catch and release are insignificant in comparison to the efforts made by catch and release anglers to educate recreational anglers on proper handling of fish, including the reduction of waste and abuse. Perhaps the entire section should be placed in the article on Animal rights, indigenous hunting philosophy, or some other more appropriate place. JStripes 03:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. Will someone do this?  Codman 23:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Links to products
There are several links in this article to websites that sell products such as catch-and-release nets. That seems like a conflict of interest to me. Should they be removed?

Togamoos (talk) 00:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, all five external links were commercial or weren't about catch and release. I have replaced them with focused links (now too many - that's another issue!). --Geronimo20 (talk) 03:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Barbless pic
Seems this article is need of someone to take a picture of a barbless hook, neither pic included is one. 75.80.123.231 (talk) 00:47, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Confusing sentence
I found this sentence incredibly confusing: "New research indicates that bait mortality is more closely related to technique than to the fact that one is fishing bait, and that bait mortality is much lower than once thought." Part of the reason for the confusion is that this is the first time the terms "bait mortality" and "fish[ing] bait" appear in the article and their meaning is not established. Stephen C. Carlson (talk) 15:34, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Relevancy and possible POV of unsourced claim
"The research does not explain why popular gamefish such as largemouth bass would intentionally prey on spiny fish and crustaceans, that regularly cause hook-like puncture wounds to the inside of their mouths."

That line has no citation, and seems to be a wink-and-nod toward the idea that fish do not feel oral pain. If no defense is given for why this line is included, I'm going to remove it. 71.162.96.31 (talk) 00:44, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Even so, it is a valid point that needs addressing. Perhaps there are strategic areas inside their mouth that can accommodate and heal punctures without distress. Instead of just deleting the comment because you don't like it, why not search the literature and see if any research explicitly addresses this point? --Epipelagic (talk) 01:10, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

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