Talk:Catch wrestling

Untitled
I think a lilttle should be added aboot the diferences between a 'shooter' and a 'hooker'. Plus also, something aboot Cornish wrestling. Lancashire wrestling was 'collar and elbow' wrestling with submission holds, Cornish wresltling had kicks.(Halbared 09:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC))

The term 'hook' and 'hooker' are used without real explanation (but don't ask me!). Also the disambiguation page for hooker has an expert practitioner of catch wrestling who has an expanded knowledge of joint locks and muscle holds and can end a fight in seconds if needed to but there is no relevant page link. --Alastair Rae (talk) 13:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

History of Catch with Pro Wrestling
Article currently does not include enough about the relationship between catch wrestling, american folkstyle wrestling, and american professional wrestling. PLEASE CONTRIBUTE. -- Jimmy C. 23:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Roosevelt
Lovely letter from Roosevelt re Jiujitsu at http://www.bartleby.com/53/59.html. Rorybowman 00:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

'The wrestlers would stretch and crank their opponets, making them shout a loud concession of "uncle" '. (Last sentence, para 2).

Possible copyright vio ? It sounds more like a line from a "Monty Python" sketch !

I'm not sure how roosevelt could point out the inadequacies of catch wrestling against Judo or JJ when he obviously wasn't well informed on catch yet himself. If all he knew about wrestling was putting people on their backs, then that's not catch. Sounds like he was talking more about a folk-style wrestling. Besides, catch already proved itself succesfull when Ad Santel (catch wrestler) defeated numerous judoka and became world judo Champion. people from Japan went to Britain to learn tricks from the catch wrestlers. for example, the double-wrist lock (a catch move) became the kimura. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.29.1.125 (talk) 19:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Wrong, it's the other way around ... holds in Jiu Jitsu were imitated in catch , catch didn't even incorporate holds until its later years during cross cultural exchanges with jiu jitsu proponents , the Kimura can be traced back to ancient Japan   . Keep in mind that Jiu Jitsu existed for hundreds of years prior to these exchanges. Don't be a bastard and disregard these historical facts. Also Ad Santel is merely one occassion involving one individual who, btw , already had training in Judo , no Catch wrestler beat Ito except Santel and note that Ito has a lot more matches under his belt. In short Catch isn't an American invention, its existence depends on contributions from a wide range of cultures. Register and show yourself.

By the way Roosevelt was a catch wrestler.Wernergerman (talk) 19:53, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Werner, I'm not trying to pick a fight here (and I'm not sure what all this bastard talk is about) but I've put a great deal of work into this article to clarify how it's different from other forms of Folk wrestling so I'm confused by your additions. By most reliable accounts British colonists in the US brought with them wrestling styles from their homelands in the British Isles, India (a British colony) and Iran (a coveted region by the British Empire).  These folks competed professionally in traveling carnivals and they named their type of wrestling "Catch".  This particular article is about that specific form of wrestling alone and it's "roots" are clearly from those places.  It's acknowledged that it has been influenced by Japanese martial arts but it's still wrestling after all.
 * Roosevelt's was a wrestler but I'm not sure he wrestled in carnivals for money. Your note about his buddy Grant being bested by a Judoko is not proof that Catch wrestling somehow was created by that particular Japanese fellow.  I understand that you think Ju-jitsu is superior to American folk wrestling but this article is not about American folk wrestling or how it may be better or worse than anything else ... this is an encyclopedia not a editorial page.
 * Your additions do not work where you've placed them in this article.Hutcher (talk) 06:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

First off, I'm not making the claim that jj is better than catch , my additions pertain to making the connections from some of holds that were employed by later catch wrestlers as being influenced by jj , you've ascribed the takedowns and other fundamental catch techniques with their respective roots , now some of the holds need their proper attributions ... I've noted instances where , for example , someone in this section claims that the kimura orignally arose from catch and it was the japs that copied the technique and claimed it as their own ... when it's actually an ancient jj technique.

i sense that there's not enough respect for just how much catch was influenced by jj and the amount of time that jj proponents spent in the US cross culturally interacting with catch wrestlers. Note that the trend of wrestling incorporating jj techniques still exist today with modern wrestling e.g. WWE and the incorporation of the gogoplata.

My intent is not to degrade catch, in fact there is no substitute for catch as an offensive strategy within mma. Like i said, there's not enough in the article at the moment explaining the time spent between catch and jj proponents. This article needs more emphasis on such interactions e.g. Roosevelt and Grant. I admit that the current revision is flawed, the section will be revised in the near future. Wernergerman (talk) 17:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Masahiko Kimura learned legitimate Catch-As-Catch-Can while working as a Professional Wrestler for Rikidozan in the early 1950s. Later Kimura would go on to beat Helio Gracie with the bread and butter hold of catch wrestling; the double wrist lock

This Entire Article Needs to be Re-Worked.
After reading this article five times, I still don't know what "catch wrestling" or for that matter "hook wrestling" is. This article gives a history of catch wrestling without any sort of explanation of what it is, and how it compares to other forms of wrestling.Ramsquire 21:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I completely agree. The image is more informative than the text. -- James26 07:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a big 10-4. I've been hunting around for a good explanation, and can't find it.


 * errr... I agree, or at least easy linking to other articles to explain this one?? Hmm... could be I just know too little about the sport as a whole? I doubt it though. Mathmo Talk 09:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The article needs more citations that just catch wrestling lore. And there are several instances of the author "straining" to tie catch wrestling in with practitioners of other styles. For example: Karo Parisian is a judo black belt and fights in the UFC. Does the fact that he fights without a gi and uses "some" wrestling holds make him a catch wrestler? And Mitsuyo Maeda was also a Judoka who traveled to Brazil to help Japan setup a colony there. This article needs more fact and less fiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.24.127.243 (talk) 13:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

true enough. even though maeda did participate in catch wrestling, his influence on the gracies was a result of his judo and not so much from his participation in catch wrestling. in fact, his involvement in CW was a matter of him trying to demonstrate the superiority of judo. his inclusion in the section of catch wrestling's influence is pretty misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.218.112 (talk) 03:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Maeda was a big influence on BJJ, and he got much of his experience through Judo and catch wrestling matches prior to that. Many moves that BJJ takes credit for have been around hundreds of years, even back to ancient Greece and Japan. I also found it interesting how many Japanese went west to learn from catch wrestlers. They obviously did it for a reason. If catch didn't have anything to offer, they wouldn't have went. It's obvious that Judo, JJ, and catch all have influenced eachother immensely. I'm tired of the BJJ nuthuggers who act like they started everything. They took from the other styles. Eddie Bravo likes to give moves his own unique name, like he made them, but they've been around in Catch Wrestling for a long time. You don't just slap a new name on something and call it your own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.29.1.125 (talk) 21:57, 2 February 2010 (UTC)



Based on the large chunks of antiquated English, it appears that the writer may be using be quoting without attribution. Text copied from other sources should be designated by quotation marks, and cited appropriately. 67.5.227.253 (talk) 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Why is it called "Catch" wrestling?
Where does the "Catch" part of the name come from?

The name catch wrestling originated in Lancashire,england where they used the method to describe an art where catching an opponent in any manner without restraints practiced in mainstream contests.the original name was catch-as-catch-can which basically means a style using freeform grappling.


 * Can the above user please place the above in the article and expound on it. There is no description of catch wrestling in the article, also can someone who knows explain what "collar and elbow" is and give examples.  To the non-wrestling enthusiasts, the artice is hard to follow as is.  For example the article says catch wrestling is the ancestor of modern professional wrestling.  However modern professional wrestling includes punching, kicking, mat work a la Greco Roman/Olympic wrestling, submission holds, throws, slams, and leaping and jumping.  The article should state which of the techniques in the above list, traces its origin to catch wrestling.  Ramsquire 23:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

--Joey gino (talk) 23:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)== Am i understanding this correctly? ==

I was under the impression that catch wrestling is an abbreviation of catch-as-catch-can, and that they can be used synonymously. Is this the case? (i've redirected catch as catch can here) ---Marcus- 08:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Great job on the article Rorybowman! ---Marcus- 08:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Technically I understand "catch-as-catch-can" to be the folk version with "catch" the professional version. I've seen the more informal "catch-as-catch-can" label applied mainly to folk wrestling of the mid-1800's in the United States, Ireland and Scotland, but I would need to check on this. I'll try to find some more authoritative printed references on a library trip someday, but it may be that the famously vague and imprecise history of wrestling terminology makes this something for a more serious academic to determine. Rorybowman 14:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Catch as catch can as I understand it is the British version used interchangeably with Lancashire wrestling. Catch as catch can was merged together with American Rough and Tumble to create Catch Wrestling the American version. I understand the American version to be more brutal and street fight oriented because that's what Rough and Tumble was. My friend has a book called Catch Wrestling I think it came out in the 70's. Erik Paulson and Granimal should be consulted on this because I think they both call their style of wrestling catch wrestling. I went to one of Erik Paulson's seminars and he had shirts that said Catch Wrestling and Granimal's website says he hosts catch wrestling matches. --Joey gino (talk) 23:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)Joseph Gencarelli

Fair use rationale for Image:Catch1.jpg
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The bastardization of Pro wrestling
There are some people here that seem to believe that there is no relation between Catch and Pro wrestling when the latter evolved entirely out of the former ... please do not delete my inclusion of the subject of Pro wrestling into this article, some here have already mentioned the need to emphasize this historical relationship. Pro wrestling has its sole roots to Catch, this is common knowledge. 24.98.64.117 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC).

The bastardization of Catch Wrestling
I understand that Professional Wrestling is derived from Catch wrestling, but that is not why I made the edits. Some people on here claim that Professional Wrestling, especially WWE, is modern-day Catch wrestling, when it is in fact not. To say that they are equal to each other is similar to saying that bare knuckle boxing is equivalent to professional boxing, which would be the false. BKB has a different set of rules than professional boxing, not to mention other differences such as gloves, equipment, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zacariasd (talk • contribs) 19:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Need more instances of Judo versus Catch matches.
Instead of arguing soley on behalf of Catch other important matches between Judo and Catch proponents need to be mentioned because there are plenty more where Judo prevailed over Catch and vice versa. Wernerchem (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC).

Practitioners section
Do we need a "practitioners" section? Other wrestling and grappling styles do not seem to have such a section. If so, I don't know why Erik Paulson, Sakuraba, Josh Barnett, and countless Japanese shootfighters aren't already on it. FlowWTG (talk) 20:08, 18 July 2010 (UTC) There already is a practitioners section including Barnett, Gomi, Couture, Shalorus, Sakuraba. Those are the usual suspects but what about Matt Hughes? He used a catch wrestling move to win a recent fight and if you listen to him or read his book he's definitely a catch wrestler. Also what about the guys Matt Hume has trained or Erik Paulson has trained? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.239.83.202 (talk) 20:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

"catch" wrestling
Catch wrestling is called "catch" because as you shoot in for a take down or your opponent shoots in you are always looking to catch your opponent in a submission. The fact that WWE calls its self the new catch wrestling is acceptable because the tactics they use are similar to actual holds. I urge people who argue to look up some of Matt Hughes old fights and Josh Barnett. Both are perfect examples of catch as catch can wrestlers.

Scientific wrestling is an excellent site to discover the true base of wresting. Single, doubles, spins and drops all have been used in wrestling; Olympic and free style in the past decade however they have been given catchy nicknames and terms. I urge anyone who is looking for a practical way to teach their BBJ buddy that its not the end all to be all to go and find there local black belt in submission wrestling or catch wrestling to find out really how much the Brazilians have over looked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.39.120.84 (talk) 02:52, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Amateur Athletic Union Rules for Catch as Catch Can Wrestling (circa 1924)
I've just scanned and posted a copy of Amateur Wrestling (published in 1925) to the Internet Archive. On pages 17-21 it has the Catch Wrestling rules as they existed back then. I probably won't have time to integrate this in to them in to this article, but if anyone is interested the material can be found here: http://www.archive.org/details/AmateurWrestling. -- Scarpy (talk) 15:01, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Mixed Martial Arts
It would be preferable to have under the sub-article title one line to mention the main article (and a link to it) which also exists on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts). I'd do it myself if I knew how to format it properly. (178.164.137.62 (talk) 22:44, 31 January 2015 (UTC)).

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program vs programme
While the martial art originated in the UK, the majority of catch wrestlers now are not English. A great number of practitioners are American, and there are a few very notable Japanese catch wrestlers as well. Given that the subject of this article is more commonly practiced in America, according to WP guidelines wouldn't we use American spelling conventions instead of British English conventions? BasicsOnly (talk) 16:30, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Tidy-up
After a brief skim, some of the syntax seems odd to me, as if English wasn't the first language of the writer or if the sentences have been translated from an app. I plan to circle back when I have the time and smooth out the structure.Halbared (talk) 16:22, 14 November 2023 (UTC)