Talk:Catherine Nimmo

Rubin Abramowitz
Catherine Nimmo's American colleague, Rubin Abramowitz, was born around 1885 but I cannot find a death date. He was a Conscientious Objector, who was apparently imprisoned Before 'industrialized vegan foods' (Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods and 'recreational vegan foods' (such as Oreos and 'doing it for the animals' even if it hurts me), a number of these early notable vegans were living a long time into their 90s, as did Pietro Rotondi (1891-1985) author of the book Vegetarian Cookery (1942). In the summer of (I think) 1978, at at the Fourth Annual  Summer Vegetarian Conference at Susquehanna University (in Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania) , I met Rubin Abramowitz, an enthusiastic vegan (who I think gave considerable money to vegan organizations, including American Vegan Society) and was a retired (I think I can recall) engineer, and a modestly tall, handsome (good looking), kind-of-elderly (65?), bald, very clear-eyed, clear-skinned illustration of the plant-based health message (which he enjoyed exemplifying in California and New York). I also sadly recall learning that he had passed (because I asked each year whether or not he was still living). [I think that I recall that, even at that time, he and a few others were interested in the fledgling renewable energy technologies (wind and solar), and a B&W video from the UK vegans talked about living ecologically on the British Isles with solar and wind power...]  He and his first wife Lillian (nee Levinson) reportedly had children - only one daughter (but not a Rubin Abramowitz, Jr.). MaynardClark (talk) 20:35, 6 October 2021 (UTC): Thanks for the info about Rubin Abramowitz. If you met him in 1978 and he was born around 1885 that puts him at a good age. I suspect he also died in his 90s. I will ask the user Throughthemind if he can help trying to find the death date. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:47, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * "Rubin could not have been born in 1885. That would have made him 93 in 1978; he was not so old then! He was younger than Dr Catherine Nimmo. There is an autobiographical essay by Rubin in the book  Here's Harmlessness  (1964) - edited by HJ Dinshah and published by AVS. HJD and Freya visited Rubin and his (first) wife Lillian in Los Angeles in the early 1960s. Rubin and Lillian had a daughter "of marriageable age" at the time; I did not hear about other children. I don't know when Rubin died. Rubin along with the Nearings, HJD, Madge Darneille, and others invited the IVU to hold a Congress in the U.S.A. That became the XXIII World Vegetarian Congress in 1975 at the University of Maine at Orono." - FD
 * "Rubin Abramowitz, a veteran of four congresses and a dozen world vegetarian congresses, voiced a theme of this gathering. In a clear tenor, he sang, “Give a Cheer for Fruits and Nuts and Grains.” The New York Times/ photo by Keith Meyers
 * On page 189 of Norm Phelps The Longest Struggle Animal Advocacy from Pythagoras to PETA it says Rubin Abramovitz with Helen and Scott Nearing attended the 1973 biennial Congress of the International Vegetarian Union that was held in Ronneby, Sweden. So we know that Abramovitz was alive in 1973. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:51, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I suggest e-mailing FREYA Dinshah of the American Vegan Society (who knew Rubin and discussed Rubin Abramowitz with me and has archival materials 'in their garage' I think) and asking her (or her adult daughter) to (a) photograph correspondence with Rubin and (b) submit them as public documents for the Wikipedia. Freya Dinshah could also answer some core questions and tell you WHERE the documentation could be found for such an article. MaynardClark (talk) 21:58, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestion I will send a few emails out about Abramowitz. On newspapers.com there are two detailed obituaries for Catherine T. Nimmo. You need to be logged into newspapers.com to see this search and you also have to pay to actually view the articles, I am not paying because it is too expensive but hopefully someone else has access. There is a lot of information that could be added to this article from newspapers about Nimmo and I am sure the same could be done with Abramowitz. I am a member of findmypast and I had access to US newspapers but they have since removed this  last month sadly so now I only have access to UK newspapers. Based on what I have seen on newspapers.com there is an obituary in the Santa Maria Times for Nimmo January 24, 1985 for Nimmo so she died in January. She also had a son and daughter. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:10, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * An obituary for Nimmo in the Five Cities Times-Press-Recorder (January 25, 1985). p. 20 lists her date of birth as September 22, 1887. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * MaynardClark I would need to have this confirmed but I just read a newspaper article that cites Rubin Abramowitz from 1978 and I think it is very unlikely he was born in 1885. His date of birth is more likely the be around 1901. I will upload the clipping so you can take a look at it. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:42, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The name 'Rubin Abramowitz' appears in US Northeast historical records and not always referring to the same person. I suspect that the WW hero  (born 1908)was not the same person (though he could have been a or the son of the vegan conscientious objector to war.
 * The word “vegan” was coined in 1944. In 1948, Catherine Nimmo and Rubin Abramowitz founded the first California vegan society in the San Luis Obispo County town of Oceano. This suggests that age peers Nimmo and Abramowitz were in touch with the social and historical and intellectual processes through which the term or word 'vegan' was coined (by Donald Watson in England).
 * I've found a profile on Ancestry for a Rubin Abramowitz that might be him: "When Rubin Abramowitz was born on 12 July 1913 in New York, USA, his father, Max, was 23 and his mother, Rose (Spitz), was 25. He married Lillian Levinson on 28 March 1952 in Los Angeles, California, USA. He then married Reinetta Piel on 12 December 1985 in Olmsted, Minnesota, USA. He died on 18 August 1987 in Chicago, Illinois, USA, at the age of 74." Throughthemind (talk) 12:06, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * If this 'Rubin Abramowitz' married Lillian Levinson, that likely is the one we are seeking, since all the details 'fit the puzzle'.  I found this: Rubin Abramowitz, born Circa 1914: Rubin Abramowitz was born on month day 1914, to Max Abramowitz and Rose Spitz.  Thus, Rubin's mother's maiden name was Spitz.
 * I also found an article written by him here ("A Specific Experiment") Throughthemind (talk) 12:16, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * And another article published in The Vegan in 1950 here ("Thoughts on Sewage"). Throughthemind (talk) 12:19, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Gets a mention in the NYT here: "Rubin Abramowitz, a veteran of four congresses and a dozen world vegetarian congresses, voiced a theme of this gathering. In a clear tenor, he sang, 'Give a Cheer for Fruits and Nuts and Grains.'" Throughthemind (talk) 12:22, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * "In 1973, several representatives of American and Canadian vegetarian communities—including Jay Dinshah, Rubin Abramowitz, and Helen and Scott Nearing, longtime activists from Harborside, Maine—attended the biennial Congress of the International Vegetarian Union (IVU)" from here p. 189. There's a photo from the 1975 conference this page. "When Rubin Abramowitz moved back to Los Angeles, Nimmo, who had worked as the society's acting director, also took over the duties of acting secretary" from here. There's a full article about him from 1976 here ("Pacifist pushes vegetarian healing"). Throughthemind (talk) 12:40, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * In that 1976 article, he's mentioned as being a "63-year-old pacifist" meaning that 1913 (1975 minus 63) would be his likely birth year. Throughthemind (talk) 12:43, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * There's a conscientious objectors case file here that is likely him. Throughthemind (talk) 12:46, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * My Internet searches for the 'letter string' "Rubin Abramowitz" continually show a 108-year-old' character identity' (whatever we would call it). - indicating hat they have records of a Rubin Abramowitz who WOULD HAVE BEEN 108 years old NOW if he had not yet died (and Freya Dinshah confirms in October 2021 that Rubin Abramowitz has already passed away). It also seems to identify 'Rubin Abramowitz' as living in Chicago, IL (but I have NO textual evidence of a Chicago residence, so association that may be a spurious misidentification, since Rubin's wife was Lillian in 1960).  I wonder who Reinetta is; is this Reinetta (nee Piel) whom Rubin married in 1985, 2 years before his death at ~74?  Did Rubin marry a (9-year) younger woman (perhaps after Lillian passed into HER reward for being such a 'good person')???  In 1978, other Chicago-based vegetarians (vegans, actually) attended that NAVS vegetarian conference, including Alvenia Fulton, ND, PhD (born 1907), who (i) wrote with Dick Gregory and (ii) railed against the negative aspects of (some types of) soul food and (iii) IMO deserves a Wikipedia article because so much has been written about her on the Internet as a leader in 'Black consciousness of health'.  I would think that (a) we have (likely) identified the REAL Rubin Abramowitz whom we are targeting; we need Chicago-based evidence (I think) that these 4 locations are all connected through Rubin Abramowitz; we would like to know what happened to (the once? 'marriageable') daughter of Rubin and Lillian Levinson Abramowitz.MaynardClark (talk) 19:25, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * What does it mean that several of us spent several days RESEARCHING an ARTICLE about a Jewish vegan pacifist who married a younger (by 9 years) JV woman (in Minnesota) and died 2 years later... in Chicago (why were they there?), and where Reinatta Piel Abramowitz would be 99 if she is still alive (and living in a nursing home at Astoria Place). If she still lives, she might tell us more, but the AVS's Here's Harmlessness (book) has a semi-autobiographical chapter by Rubin Abramowitz. He and a MUCH older Danish vegan woman (Catherine T. Nimmo, who emigrated from Denmark to join him in Oceano, California) started the first vegan society in North America, called the US Vegan Society. That 'national' vegan society ENDED in 1960 when Jay and Freya Dinshah visited them in Oceano, California, and then started the AVS (American Vegan Society) in Malaga, New Jersey (where it still operates 61 years later).  Several themes and questions and issues emerge from this study:
 * A. The strong presence of Jewish vegetarians and vegans in (a) organizing local vegetarian and animal advocacy groups has been explored and discussed, but not in articles in our WikiProject. My experience is that 'it may emerge biographically from the ethical emphases in the Jewish spiritual tradition', where 'the whole' is to benefit from our moral decisionmaking. Vegan diets do not impose burdens of expense on the adherents the way government 'entitlements' may, and so it is low hanging fruit with significant short-term, medium-range, and long-term benefits - and it is scientifically defensible, so self-respect is not sacrificed IF all the related decisions are demonstrably rational and evidence-based. It 'expresses' or brings forward a 'tradition of moral reasoning' of high quality.
 * B. Is AVS really a continuation of the US Vegan Society, since the Dinshahs' visit to Oceano, California to see Nimmo and Abramowitz looks to some outsiders like 'a handoff' of the 'national organization' claim (albeit with a name change)? [On this topic: US Vegan Society reportedly ENDED in 1960, the same year that AVS was begun by the Dinshahs, but Freya reported in October 2021 that 'the Dinshahs had visited' ... in the early 1960s... after AVS had been founded.]
 * C. Where did Reinetta Piel come from? (Is this her 2nd marriage?)
 * D. What happened to the daughter of the first marriage of Rubin Abramowitz - to Lillian Levinson (and where did Lillian come from)?
 * E. What of Rubin's experience as a conscientious objector?
 * F. Did Abramowitz have prior vegan connections with Chicago, Illinois 60659, (a) where he died in 1987 at age 74 and (b) where the woman (Reinetta Piel) who later would become his (presumed) widow lived in that same zip code (presumably for a long time - but at least since 2006 according to Internet sources, and maybe  still lives at age 99)? When was 60659 listed as his zip code if he died in Chicago, since it is independently listed also as her zip code. MaynardClark (talk) 20:13, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should think of an article on Rubin Abramowitz as a brief (draft) encyclopedic article to be enhanced later as information comes in.MaynardClark (talk) 16:44, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Rubin's second wife, Reinetta Piel, was born in Gary, Indiana (Lake County) in 1922 (we think), and (we think) seems to have been married before - in Chicago - and at a a MUCH earlier (likely in her late 20s) age. Cook County, Illinois Marriage Index, 1930-1960, shows that she was married to Aaron Aronin.  Her name appears in Ancestry.com twice as Reinetta P. Aronin (nee Piel). MaynardClark (talk) 02:36, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * "When Reinetta Piel was born about 1922 in Gary, Indiana, her father, Nathan, was 30, and her mother, Helen, was 28. In 1940, she was 18 years old and lived in Calumet, Indiana, with her father, mother, and grandfather (possibly Nathan Migatz, 73)."MaynardClark (talk) 02:12, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing such thorough research! Would you say there are sufficient sources to prove notability and to create an article for Abramowitz? Throughthemind (talk) 16:44, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, IMO there is enough to justify doing (a) a magazine article or (b) possibly a book. Surely there is enough for a Wikipedia article on the topic.  How is he presented?  Cofounder of first vegan society in America, leading directly to founding of American Vegan Society?? Other than Rubin's second wife and (likely) also a vegan, who was Reinetta Piel?  MaynardClark (talk) 04:07, 14 October 2021 (UTC)