Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 27

Old stuff
I'm sorry but if somebody types in "Catholic Church", "The Roman Catholic Church", or "The Catholic Church" -- all of which were hitherto redirected to a the article on the word Catholic -- they are clearly not looking for information on the word "Catholic". This redirection strongly suggests a POV. If one is honest with himself -- regardless of his views on which Church is truly "catholic" -- then he will acknowledge the obvious: someone who types any of the aformentioned terms is looking for -- and should be directed to -- our article, Roman Catholic Church.

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What a lot of nonsense. If an Orthodox/Anglican/Baptist/Presbyterian child, upon reading the apostles' creed in church, wants to know what is the "Holy Catholic Church", I'm sure their parents won't appreciate being redirected to the Roman Catholic Church page. What would be appropriate would be some kind of article discussing the origins and meaning of the concept of the "catholic church" from different points of view. For now, we should redirect somewhere more ecumenical.

The page is now redirected to the Roman Catholic Church article. The reason is that the Orthodox Church page is redirected to the Eastern Orthodox page. It would be really silly to have a disambiguation page for the Orthodox church to split between Eastern Orthodox (Orthodox) and Western Orthodox (Catholic) now wouldn't it? Wallie 16:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, the term 'Catholic Church' is disputed. The term is often used for the Roman Catholic Church (indeed that is how that denomination self-identifies). It is also used for denominations that share certain characteristics with the RC Church. But most Christian denominations (including many Protestants) consider themselves to be Catholic Churches, or part of the Catholic Church (and contest the RC description of itself as the Catholic church.. Since wikipedia is NPOV, we can't rule any one of these meanign as correct. The only NPOV thing to do is to have this page as a disambiguation page, or redirect it to a disambig page. I will do nothing at the moment - but if there no rational objection, I'll change this redirect in a few days. --Doc ask?  19:34, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There was a whole heap of commotion over changing this redirect, all discussed at Talk:Roman Catholic Church. Better say something there, there are few edit warrers who could disrupt the changing of the redirect.--Commander Keane 05:05, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It would seem to me that any discussion of a redirect of this page should happen on this talk page. Indeed, a discussion among the people working on Talk:Roman Catholic Church would see to invite a rather skewed outcome. That's about as legitimate as me starting a discussion on the Protestant talk page. --Doc ask?  12:18, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Mate, I'm not bothered where the discussion is. It's just that the last time someone did what you proposed there was an edit war (hence my protection as noted below), and that was after significant discussion and a straw poll. Just a word of warning. Anyway, I'll start fixing the 950 links to Catholic Church with my bot.--Commander Keane 12:34, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the heads up. I'll leave things a lone for a bit, and see what happens, then I'll file an RfC if neccessary. Edit waring is not for me. --Doc ask?  12:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

On second thoughts I won't be going through the 950 links. It turns out that "Catholic Church" is so synonymous with "Roman Catholic Church" that I can't make the changes required with my limited knowledge, best to leave it to someone with more expertise. I never thought that you would edit war, I was just concerned that your change would be overturned.--Commander Keane 13:16, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Protected
I have protected this page while discussion occurs on its fate here.--Commander Keane 06:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Unprotected.--Commander Keane 08:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Redirect target

 * The very fact that there is a Catholic Church (disambiguation) page proves the appropriateness of lettting this page redirect there, to the disambiguation page. Then, if one was in fact looking for the Roman Catholic Church article, they could simply click on it. The claim that everyone who would be typing in the words "Catholic Church" could only be looking for the Roman Catholic Church is unfounded. I vote that this page redirect to the "Catholic Church (disambiguation)" page instead of the "Roman Catholic Church" page. That would be the only NPOV solution--let the user decide for themself what they are looking for. MishaPan 04:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "The very fact that there is a Catholic Church (disambiguation) page proves the appropriateness of lettting this page redirect there, to the disambiguation page."

No it doesn't, and it would upset a delicate balance achieved over multiple articles after months of discussion. Gimmetrow 16:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Merely saying, "No it doesn't", doesn't address the issue. If someone were to change the Redirect of "Catholic Church" to point to Eastern Orthodox Church, would you consider that to be a "delicate balance"? Would you consider that to be NPOV? After all, the Eastern Orthodox make the exact same claim to be exclusively the Catholic Church that the Roman Catholics make, and making use of the same Church Fathers. The only arguments for pointing "Catholic Church" to "Roman Catholic Church" are of a sectarian nature, and do not represent the worldview of Wikipedia. Again, any who would be intending to go to "Roman Catholic Church" when they typed in "Catholic Church" would come to the disambiguation page and be able to click directly on the link to the "Roman Catholic Church" article, and they might learn something in the process--isn't that the objective of Wikipedia? I've read the talk here and on the Talk:Roman Catholic Church page, and have not found anything NPOV that justifies the current redirect of this page. MishaPan 18:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:NPOV states, "The policy requires that, where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic, these should each be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one." (Emphasis added.) The Catholic Church (disambiguation) page is the only redirect that fulfills this policy with regard to the term "Catholic Church". MishaPan 18:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

What I said was, the existence of a disambiguation page does not, of itself, prove the appropriateness of this page redirecting there. This has been discussed extensively, please see previous discussions. Gimmetrow 19:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * So I gathered. And my point was that simply saying "it ain't so" doesn't make it "not so". Neither of your responses have answered the arguments put forth. After your last post I - once again - read the extensive discussion on both this page and the Talk:Roman Catholic Church page. What I found on both pages were strong opinions, but no consensus that the term "Catholic Church" refers in an NPOV manner exculsively to the Roman Catholic Church and those sui iuris churches that are in communion with her. "Wikipedia works by building consensus" (Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion). MishaPan 15:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

From the comments above there seem to be two substantial reasons for redirecting Catholic Church to the Catholic Church (disambiguation) page:

1) The very fact that there is a Catholic Church (disambiguation) page, as pointed out above

2) The Eastern Orthodox make the exact same claim to be exclusively the Catholic Church in the same way the Roman Catholics do. Hence we must abide by WP:NPOV which states, "The policy requires that, where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic, these should each be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as ‘the truth’, in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one."a Elijah1979 (talk) 04:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Redirect
I thought this redirect was protected. Apparently not. There has been extensive discussion on where this redirect should point. Changing it has consequences for at least hundreds of articles, if not thousands. The primary reason the redirect points to Roman Catholic Church is that when someone types in "Catholic Church", they are most likely looking for information on the Roman Catholic Church. It's therefore the "primary meaning" of the term. If the redirect does not point to RCC, then you will have people arguing (and implementing) that the RCC article should be at "Catholic Church". Most editors agreed to the current solution (pointing to RCC) during very extensive discussions that went for months. Gimmetrow 04:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It doesn't really matter if most people are looking for the Roman Catholic Church when typing in "Catholic Church". That redirect is a clear violation of NPOV, and as such is not allowed. Deusveritasest (talk) 04:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Kindly explain why you think so, since others don't think it is. However, your POV pushing is evident. Gimmetrow 04:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * "Catholic Church" is a term introduced in the universal creeds of the early Church. As to who is the successor of the early Church, which is unquestionably the Catholic Church, is up to debate and opinion. To equate "Catholic Church" to "Roman Catholic Church" is essentially asserting to private point of view, in a public encyclopedia, that the Roman Catholic Church is the original Church established by Christ. Deusveritasest (talk) 05:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That CC points to RCC doesn't imply they are identical, whatever your POV may think. It was established in the last discussion, which went on for months, that the WP:PRIMARYMEANING of "Catholic Church" is the content currently at "Roman Catholic Church". Thus the redirect must point there. Gimmetrow 05:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If it's not universally established as identical to RCC, then the CC should redirect to a page detailing the various possibilities of what is meant by CC. Deusveritasest (talk) 05:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No, that does not follow at all. The encyclopedia is built for the sake of readers, and if the readers looking for X primarily want topic Y, then we put the content for Y at X. In this case, that would cause a holy war, so we have X redirect to Y. Gimmetrow 05:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * What is easy for the readers is insignificant if it is a violation of the rules. Deusveritasest (talk) 05:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * But you have not in any way demonstrated that it's a violation of any rules, therefore you have no argument. This redirect went through extensive discussion, which you do not seem to be aware of, that resolved on this as the best solution. Have you read that? Gimmetrow 05:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * So you're saying showing someone a particular ecclesiastical group when they say they are looking for the "Catholic Church" is not an expression of the point of view that it is the Catholic Church? That's pretty ridiculous. Deusveritasest (talk) 06:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Deusveritasest. Just because there was some long discussion a long time ago does not resolve this violation. Perhaps the former parties in the discussion were tired of debating, or gave in to easily. Fact of the matter if, having "Catholic Church" redirect to the "Roman Catholic Church" does indeed represent a point of view. If someone types in "America" what country do you think they are looking for? The USA probably. But there are other countries in the Americas, thus it points to a page structured similar to the "Catholic Church (disambiguation)" page showing everything someone might be looking for. I can find you dozens of precedents like this on Wikipedia. For some reason, though, some people on here feel sooo strongly that "Catholic Church" should point to "Roman Catholic Church." Is that not clear bias and "undue weight" given towards one opinion?? Elijah1979 (talk) 16:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, the America page is a really good example, Elijah. Deusveritasest (talk) 20:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Please look through the archives, but I'll try to summarize the issue. A redirect is not a theological claim; it is an aid to readers and a help to the search engine. It generally reflects common usage of term. There is one major organisation which uses the name "Catholic Church" in practice as an actual name, and not just as a theological description. Those searching for information on "The Catholic Church" are by and large looking for information about a specific organisation, and not a theological claim; the organisatin represents the WP:PRIMARYMEANING of the term. There is no point making most readers click twice find the information they want. In other cases, like Apostolic Church, an actual name used by an actual church, we put the content about the particular organisation which uses the name at that place. Or at United States, which is about United States of America with a hatnote for other meanings. Here we have a redirect. To clarify that "Catholic Church" and "Roman Catholic Church" are not the same thing, there is a hatnote on "Roman Catholic Church" pointing to other meanings. Orthodox Church used to redirect to Eastern Orthodox Church and I'm not really sure why it was changed. Gimmetrow 23:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, Gimmetrow, but you have not backed up your claim above with any valid precedent on Wikipedia, but rather your own personal interpretation of Wikipedia's structure. Further, the example you gave did not support your argument, but only added more precedent for the change I am proposing. Just as America points to a broader page, rather then the USA, and just like Orthodox Church points to something broader than the Eastern Orthodox Church, so too Catholic Church should follow this precedent. Until you back up your personal interpretation with Wikipedia precedence as I have, your argument has no weight. Elijah1979 (talk) 03:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, but you have pushed your POV here long enough. You have not demonstrated that you have even READ the previous discussion on the topic, nor have you shown any comprehension of why your example is irrelevant. This is NOT a personal interpretation, but the result of at least two extensive discussions which spanned *months*. Can you not possibly consider that you do not understand the principles involved? There is no point discussing this issue with someone who refuses to do the homework required. Gimmetrow 04:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Also...
Someone above attempted to make the point that the Orthodox Church exemplifies our opponent's point of view, saying that it redirects to the Eastern Orthodox Church. This is not true what-so-ever. The redirect as of right now from "Orthodox Church" is to "Orthodox Christianity", which references several ecclesiastical bodies. Deusveritasest (talk) 20:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Consensus?
Since you will not discuss it and there is no clear consensus on this page I will give you 8 hours to provide pointers to where-ever the consensus was in the past and/or whatever factors I may not be aware of. --Carlaude (talk) 23:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ooh, a time limit. Well, first, read WP:DAB for guidelines on disambiguation pages and WP:PRIMARYMEANING for guidelines on the primary meaning. Once you have an actual argument, then start a discussion, and be prepared to spend at least a month attempting to resolve every possible angle, and expect that ultimately there will be no consensus to change. Gimmetrow 23:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * For reference purposes, here is a link to the archive, with particular reference to the discussion within the archive. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 06:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, that has nothing to do with the redirect target; that was a move proposal. Try Talk:Roman_Catholic_Church/Archive_4 for the redirect target. Gimmetrow 01:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)