Talk:Catie Ball/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 18:24, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:24, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Mike. I look forward to your comments.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:47, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. Here are some from a first pass; I am only halfway through but need to run an errand. I'll try to finish this this evening.
 * What does the "weight" parameter in an infobox refer to for a retired athlete? Last weight recorded during career? Not really a GA question, but I haven't reviewed many sports articles and I've never noticed that parameter before.
 * For a retired athlete it's usually their last recorded playing weight; for an Olympian, it's usually their weight from their last official Olympic weigh-in. The reference here is the subject's Olympic athlete profile from Sports-Reference.com.
 * OK; I was just curious. That's what I think a reader would expect, so it seems fine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 22:53, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Footnote 2 doesn't talk about J.E.T.S. or AAU competition, which is what it's citing in the second sentence -- is this a misplaced footnote?
 * I just looked at footnote 16 and it mentions it, so I think that just needs to be added here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ Added FSHOF footnote to AAU/JETS text. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:29, 7 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The NYT article mentions a 200m record set earlier in 1966 that is not mentioned in the article.
 * I'll work this into the text; it should have been in there already.
 * See below under the comment on the list of world records; I'm not sure this is real. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Ball set a new world record in the 100-meter breaststroke in December 1966, after setting a new American record in August 1966. The NYT reference to a 200-meter record in '66 is apparently a typo; a Soviet/Russian swimmer was the 200-meter record holder until Ball set a new 200-meter record in 1967.  I'm pretty confident we have the correct records progression from USA Swimming and other sources, now listed in the tables at the end of the article.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed -- this seems to be an error in the NYT article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:31, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The external link to appears to be dead.
 * ✅ Replaced dead link with current one for FHSAA record book.


 * "Ball won three gold medals in the 100-meter and 200-meter breaststroke events, and by swimming the breaststroke leg for the winning U.S. team in the 4x100-meter medley relay": how about "Ball won three gold medals in the 100-meter and 200-meter breaststroke events, and the 4x100-meter medley relay, in which she swam the breaststroke leg for the winning U.S. team"?
 * ✅ Works for me, sir.


 * This is picky, and I wouldn't hold up GA for this, but neither source you give says she swam the breaststroke leg in the 1967 Pan-Am Games 400m individual medley. It's pretty obvious that's the leg she swam, but if it's easy to find a source that is specific, it might as well be added.
 * I'll do my best to find something that confirms she swam the breaststroke leg.
 * Mike, this one is driving me crazy -- swimming fans know which swimmer swam which leg by the order; the medley relay is always swum in the following sequence: backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly and freestyle -- which is easy to remember alphabetically. I can't find any contemporary news sources that specifically say Ball swam the breaststroke leg, but she did swim the second leg which implies breaststroke in the standard medley relay order.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:02, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's skip it; it's not like there's actually any doubt about it -- it's just OCD on my part. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:31, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Per the source in footnote 9, she also held 110 yard and 220 yard world records; those are no longer recorded, I would assume, but they're a part of her career and I think they should be mentioned. How do sports articles handle records for extinct events?
 * There's no reason not to work the non-metric records into the text; they were clearly still relevant in the United States in the 1960s. Now, in 2014, the non-metric records are really only relevant to NCAA college swimming because the NCAA holds their national championships in non-metric distances every other year.


 * FYI, I just tried newspapers.com, and found some material; I believe you have a subscription but if not I'd be happy to clip some material for you. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I do now, but I did not when I wrote most of this article in 2010. I will review and incorporate any new material I can find through newspapers.com.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:54, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Mike, I've reviewed the 200+ articles rendered by a newspapers.com search, and there's a lot of duplication, what with variations on the same AP articles reprinted in multiple newspapers. Virtually all of the coverage revolves around the same seven or eight major events, with some columns and human interest stuff along the way.  I've added some additional footnotes, but I don't think we've missed any major events.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:34, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:35, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Footnote 12 goes to a "Bleacher report" page, not to the named article.
 * ✅ Sports Illustrated is absolutely maddening with the frequency with which they change links to their old article links in their online archive. CNN/SI is now redirecting to CNN/BR; I've deleted the URL for the dead link.
 * I take it there's no live link available any more? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:53, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ Linked the Sports Illustrated article, but this will be an ongoing maintenance issue. SI has repeatedly changed the links to their "Vault" archive articles over the last five years.  Works for now, though.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:04, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I had a look at the Wayback Machine, and that page has been archived here, so you might want to link to that. You can add pages to the Wayback Machine on request, which might be a useful trick for articles that use Sports Illustrated citations -- details are here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:35, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit surprised to see that the article doesn't list each of her world records, with the date and event information; the reader has to go to the "progression" articles to see these, which is inconvenient since the times are distributed across three different articles (and that doesn't include the 110 yard and 220 yard events). Shouldn't they be listed in an "Achievements" or "Records" section?  Even national records seem notable enough to be listed, if they can be sourced.
 * I'll try to compile a records list; I believe a list of most of the metric records is available through ISHOF. Finding comprehensive lists of the older non-metric records is, however, problematic.
 * ✅ I've compiled a list of her metric distance records and added to the article.
 * Working to compile a list of the non-metric records; given the sourcing problems, this may have to be a longer term goal.
 * I see the NYT's mention of an earlier 200m mark in 1966 is not in the list, and looking around I am having a hard time sourcing that. I wonder if it was never ratified?  Digging into the NYT archives I see a reference to her breaking the 200m U.S. women's record twice and the 100m U.S. women's record once in an article dated 8/21/66.  Perhaps that's what the writer of the 12/28/66 piece was thinking of.  Here are some more NYT sources for you (I can do the citations if you don't have access).  This is the sort of thing that would be good for FA but is just icing on the cake for GA.  Dates are day of publication.  4/17/66 p. 222: 100 yard record (doesn't say national or world); 4/18/66 p. 40: NAAU wins; 8/19/66 p.23 beats world record but below a pending world record, also NAAU title; 8/21/66 p. 192: titles and U.S./meet records; 10/16/66 p. 223 wins title at Little Olympics (not sure what that is).  I can dig up more of these if you like. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 10:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I think two or three of the "See also" links are marginal; I'd suggest cutting History of the University of Florida, List of University of Florida alumni, and University Athletic Association. None are closely connected to either the sport in question or Ball's career.
 * ✅ I've prioritized and cut three.


 * has a little extra colour you might use for the Olympic final; it mentions Ball lost time on her leg in the medley final.
 * Can you source her degree? It's uncited at the moment.
 * That's not an accident; I have a related question for you. I confirmed her degree on the alumni-only, registration-only UFAA website.  Any suggestions on how to cite that?  Frankly, one of the reasons I never cite it is I'm not sure my use of it is permitted by the UFAA.  The UFAA does publish a hard-copy of the alumni directory every four or five years, but the last hard-copy edition I own is from the early 1990s.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:54, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would they not allow it? Is there a terms of use on their website?  But since it's not something any reader can verify, I agree it's not ideal.  Maybe ask at WT:CITE?  I don't think this needs to be addressed for GA, since her college attendance is cited, just not the graduation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 10:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ I found a work-around: I located a citation for the 2000 edition of the hard-copy alumni directory on Amazon.com, and I have included the citation for the hard-copy book. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:36, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I've completed the review; I'll put the article on hold while you work on it. Let me know if any of my comments seem to you more like FA than GA standards; I do many more FAC reviews than GAN reviews, so I find it hard not to just point out every single thing I see. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 00:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Mike. I think all of your comments are good ones, and your suggestions are excellent.  I'll work on your suggestions.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:54, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe the article is ready for another look-see from its reviewer. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:26, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm having to spend my free time on a real life issue for a few days, so I'm afraid it might be a week or two till I get to this, unless I can break loose some time one evening this week. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:10, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Not a problem. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:44, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the delay on this; I've struck a couple and should have more time tomorrow to follow up on the remaining points. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:31, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Mike. No need to apologize.  By my reckoning, I'm still 8-10 weeks ahead of the current wait on the GAN review queue, and I got the pick of the litter for a reviewer.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:06, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

It's a pity there's not more information available about her non-metric records, but that's the way it seems to be. Everything looks good, so I'm passing this. A nice, concise article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:11, 19 November 2014 (UTC)