Talk:Cattle egret

older comments
Hi all,

In my experience, Cattle Egret always go with Water buffalo instead of Cattle. What is Ur views? User:Kclama

I have four that regularly visit my front yard, whenever our three goats are out to pasture far enough from the house. The impression that I get is that they will associate with any animal that disturbs or attracts the insects they feed on. Whenever a Water buffalo passes by (the neighbors have one), they ignore the goats. It seems given the choice, they prefer the bigger animal. Perhaps the Water buffalo somehow attract more insects compared to cattle because of their grazing habits? I'm not certain, and this certainly can't be considered encyclopedic content, but you asked for my view, so here it is. :-) Alternativity 19:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Northernmost vagrant?
A Cattle Egret was observed from October 9 to 18, 2006 (ratified by the Finnish Rarities Committee on December 9) in Pekkala, Rovaniemi, Finland (66°21′22″ N 26°49′41″ E) – or 22.6 km (14.0 mi) south of the Arctic Circle – and I was wondering has this species been observed this north ever before? This was only the second natural occurrence of the species in Finland (the previous was from May 15 to 17, 2002 in Storby, Eckerö; there's also one more record of a "coromandus" type bird from Märäjälahti, Lieksa and neaby area from July 31 to August 18, 1994, but this was an escape). I saw the bird myself on October 17, and only a minute or two later it started snowing – something this species is unlikely very familiar with. A Cattle Egret, believed to be the same individual, was previously (October 6 to 8) observed in Niemelänkylä, Ylivieska, meaning that it had traveled a distance of at least 274 km (170 mi) in one day. You can find photographs of all said individuals on this page. --Anshelm &#39;77 14:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Cattle Egret (3 votes) is collab for March-April 2008
Nominated March 11, 2008;

Support:

Comments:
 * 1) Sabine's Sunbird   talk  00:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) Jimfbleak (talk) 11:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 3) Shyamal (talk) 13:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Cosmopolitan species with fascinating history (world wide traveller that it is) and easy to get info and images on - plus we have no big heron articles yet. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  00:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with the above, and I've done a bit on this already. Jimfbleak (talk) 11:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Gallery
Lots of pretty so-so images in there. It can perhaps go now that we have enough space in the article to stick lost of the better images in? Sabine's Sunbird  talk  02:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, galleries have no place in mature articles. Shyamal (talk) 02:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you agree. I loathe galleries entirely, to be honest. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  02:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've moved some images into text, so most sections have a picture, and I'll remove rest. Jimfbleak (talk) 06:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep. good work all. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I have uploaded another 11 images from flickr to commons. A few may be better than some of the current images for the article - take your pick. Snowman (talk) 13:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Several photos on the current page do not show the birds lower legs or feet. Snowman (talk) 21:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

To do
Jimfbleak (talk) 06:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) needs map
 * 2) Bibliography - unneeded
 * 3) external links - not needed and parochial
 * 4) predators
 * 5) needs copy editing, esp with regard to drifting to plural in places
 * Breeding needs much expansion. Nothing about sibilicide, fledging times, parental care, brooding, success etc, breeding season times outside Australia.
 * Spread in South America - need some info on this. More info on movements in Africa would be good too. Also possibly mention some of the other vagrancy.
 * Image of a nest or colony would be nice.

Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Not essential for GA but would be good for FAC is why the Cattle Egret is in its own genus, in hte taxonomy section. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I am trying to trace some "grey" literature (should hopefully qualify WP:RS as it is a local publication of an established natural-history organization) on their nocturnal migration in southern India. Can be readily observed against the moon along the eastern coast. I was a bit surprised to find that there is hardly anything scholarly on the topic. Can someone with access to Hancock-Kushlan check out if there is any information on nocturnal movements/migration of Cattle Egrets. Shyamal (talk) 05:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Kushlan-Hancock most relevant parts are on google books ! Worth checking. Shyamal (talk) 07:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * My birds of the Seychelles can fill in some info on the third race - just give me a day, my meeting of doom is today *dramatic music*. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I can create a map of the range, but need info on their range in Eurasia - so far have only found Americas and Australia. Anyone have a link to worldwide maps that I can reference to do this? 63.118.227.254 Enviropearson (talk) 21:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Update
Jimfbleak (talk) 09:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Slowly improving, but needs a serious copyedit, I did a quick read through and picked up about 15 errors and infelicities, but there are bound to be more
 * 2) Intro needs a bit of work
 * 3) Although everything is reffed now, refs are a mess, inconsistent with each other and sometimes incorrect (eg isbn). I might go through these when I'm feeling strong enough, if other can pick up the intro and ce.

I got to ref 17 before disrupted by edit conflicts. Please, please, please Jimfbleak (talk) 10:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) either use cite templates, which format automatically, or make sure that manual refs are formatted correctly - look at the cite template ones if not sure
 * 2) use ndash for page ranges, not hyphens
 * 3) format page numbers consistently, I've defaulted to no symbol (eg not p, pp or P.p)


 * I've spent ages going through the refs, not sure I've picked up everything, but can't face going through again. Jimfbleak (talk) 12:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ref 34 is dead Jimfbleak (talk) 12:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a website there, but the link leads to a page that says that the website has been reorganised. It is a login only site, and I did not log in. Snowman (talk) 13:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've killed the courtesy link since it doesn't access the text and not needed. For books and journals I often don't even link to abstracts, just full text. Jimfbleak (talk) 15:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

comment
I don't know your protocol here for reporting. But I do know plagiarism. I don't know if this was plagiarized, or it is plagiarism. The very first spot I found it was is SANBI. I don't know which is primary or if the author did the citation. DrPMO 17:43, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Read this
I ran this. So what? Jimfbleak (talk) 14:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hilarious. For giggles I ran albatross, antbird and bird through it as well. Bird is twice as long as my masters thesis! But apparently featured bird articles need to use long words that only old people understand. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  20:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

GA?
Guys, do you want to run this one through GA? Looks near enough to that level to be a good staging point and a chance for a fresh pair of eyes on it. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm still not convinced by the intro, and nothing yet about it acting as a carrier for disease vectors like Newcastle disease and Heartwater Jimfbleak (talk) 11:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Did not know about the two diseases. Worth hunting down. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added a sentence on the diseases Jimfbleak (talk) 12:19, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * and I've stubbed heartwater to get rid of the red-link Jimfbleak (talk) 14:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm ready if someone wants to nom Jimfbleak (talk) 07:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Done and dusted. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Readability
Some of the captions of the images do not include the subspecies. Also, I wonder if it would be clearer and simpler to have separate subsections for each subspecies. Is an image of one of the subspecies missing? The lay out of the images do not make it easy to compare the subspecies. The diet in the introduction is not clear except it eats insects, and could be misleading if only the introduction is read. Snowman (talk) 09:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If the Seychelles form is counted as a ssp, there is no usable image available (not a problem, no illustration at all required at GA). AFAIK non-breeding birds cannot be identified by sight to ssp, and although the location obviously is a strong pointer, I'm not sure it's necessary to add for white birds. Jimfbleak also tweaked intro (talk) 11:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Where do they find enough drinking water in their typical habitat of dry grassland? Snowman (talk) 13:08, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * same place as other grassland mammals, lakes, rivers waterholes. "dry" only means not wet, it doesn't mean arid. Jimfbleak (talk) 14:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Commons link
A commons link is useful since there really are a large number of images out there. Unfortunately the commons template needs some space and it is best accomodated within an external links section with at least about 2 or 3 links. Shyamal (talk) 15:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I might have messed something up here - removed ext links since weren't any - why is it needed for commons tag? Jimfbleak (talk) 16:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I think commons is an external link itself. Snowman (talk) 13:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Blatant advertising
The male advertises in a tree in the colony How? Jimfbleak (talk) 16:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Behaviour is covered in rather great detail in the Kushlan link above - google books. In the meantime here is a map showing the spread of Cattle Egret in the New World. The source information is apparently a Smith, 1974 (http://www.geo.arizona.edu/Antevs/ecol438/lect08.html) [[Image:Cattle_egret_spread.svg|thumb]] Shyamal (talk) 16:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems to be missing info on their spread through central and eastern South America. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  21:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Post 1975? I can do up the maps if there are sources. Its odd that so little is around! Shyamal (talk) 01:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Gaps in knowledge of Neotropical birds? Never! Sabine's Sunbird  talk  02:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Is some data available or not? Why does the map have a border? Snowman (talk) 10:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Map border was unintentional and can be edited out. But looks like we have really little global information on the distribution of a common species. Shyamal (talk) 13:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Is it appropriate to put a striped zone for "Egrets are present here but the details of their spread are not well recorded"? Snowman (talk) 14:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Can't get the Google book link to work, try again later. Why is status a subheading of relationships with humans? Better as a heading, or, given its brevity, as a subheading of distribution and behaviour. Jimfbleak (talk) 06:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It's fairly typical to have status as a subheading of relationship since it is usually humans that have the biggest effect on what the status is. It's usually our fault if something is doing badly, or, in this case, well. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  20:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It is also on the Galapagos islands apparently. Snowman (talk) 13:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * For a map derived only from specimens from some collections see Shyamal (talk) 15:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

FA
Okay, so what else do we need to send this all the way? I'd suggest getting a new pair of eyes to pick over the prose, but it looks fairly good to me overall. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  04:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have left a note on User:Ravedave's talkpage. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The male advertises in a tree in the colony As mentioned previously, this immediately leads a reviewer to ask "How?" I can't find an answer, so imho this should go if it can't be sourced. 06:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Heron displays are fairly typical and uncotroversial. I'll look for a source but don't remove it in a hurry. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  21:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Explained and cited now. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  00:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I did a quick read through, I think it's ready for FAC there aren't any major problems. What I saw quickly:


 * "Its performance is similar when the follow farm machinery, but it are forced to move more.[44]"
 * It are? Yikes. Done Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Distribution and habitat could explain the "Why" of its expansion earlier.
 * In every book I've read about the spread the spread was described first, then then explanation. That way it goes Natural range => new range=> why new range. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Feeding - does the term "conspecifics" need to be used? Could it at least be explained?
 * I linked by way of explanantion. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "Its Arabic name, abu qerdan, means “father of ticks", a name derived from the huge number of parasites found in its breeding colonies." - It eats ticks, right? So why would they be all over the nesting area?
 * They eat cattle ticks, and are infested with (presumably smaller) avian ticks. I'll try and clarify. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  22:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Does it have any calls/sounds? If so can you look for a recording?
 * It isn't a vocal species, it's call is mentioned in description. We don't have a call, maybe we'll get one one day. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Should this have further info? Why "stereotyped" are the behaviors the same as another species? - "The male advertises in a tree in the colony, using an range of stereotyped behaviours such as shaking a twig and sky pointing,[35] and the pair forms over three or four days. "
 * The defenition of a sterotyped behaviour is a relatively invariant mode of behaviour elicited or determined by a particular situation; may be verbal, postural, or expressive.. Often it is a mental deficiency or symptom of a problem (see Stereotypy) but in this context it just means that it is one of several repetative behaviours used as a display (see Albatross for their dances). Sabine's Sunbird   talk  01:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, you aren't using the layperson version of the term, you are using this one: Stereotype. Hrm I'm not sure how to resolve. This isn't an ethology journal so most people reading it are going to be confused. -Ravedave (talk) 15:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, ritualised may cover it. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

-Ravedave (talk) 17:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you find a range map?


 * Okay, I think it's good to go. Who want's to do the honours? Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure but think Jim or you did the most work on it, so maybe a co-nom between you guys. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine, I'll co-nom it. Jimfbleak (talk) 05:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject tags
This species is or has been found in almost every country on Earth, and the swathe of country wikiprojects claiming it seemed slightly ridiculous. For that reason I removed the tags. I wonder how long before country wikiprojects claim things like air and roads just because they occur in their country too. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  00:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree, unless a species is endemic or there is a special reason (eg Bald Eagle - US) should be chopped Jimfbleak (talk) 05:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Egrets in Hawaii
It was the benefit to stock that prompted ranchers and the Hawaiian Board of Agriculture and Forestry to release the species in Hawaii.
 * Yes, but there have been lots of problems. IIRC, they eat the native, baby birds.  I'll see what sources I can dig up. Viriditas (talk) 07:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * For a while, it was an archipelago with no egrets. :-)  Sorry!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Actual sub-species?
From "The Herons" by Kushlan and Hancock, it listed Cattle Egret as Ardea Ibis as biochemical studies found that it is closer to Ardea. Should the Bubulcus replaced with Ardea based on the biochemical studies as written on the book?
 * Perhaps http://tolweb.org/Ardeidae/26331 is more recent. Shyamal (talk) 15:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Type locality
Not sure about the type locality tag on this page, but if you see J L Peter's Checklist you will find that B. ibis is restricted to Egypt while B. ibis coromandus is given as Coromandel (probably Pondicherry). Shyamal (talk) 10:16, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Things to fix
Just giving this a quick read through (late to the party, sorry). I'll list anything that needs fixing and for which there isn't an immediately obvious solution here: SP-KP (talk) 18:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * the wikilink to "wading birds" in the lead takes you to the charadriiform waders, whereas I think that the North American heron/stork/ibis meaning of the term is what is really intended.

Southernmost record
Spotted this today at work - while focused on South Georgia, it mentions in passing that the cattle egret has been recorded as far south as the Argentine Islands off the Antarctic Peninsula, about five degrees further south than the South Orkney Islands. Andrew Gray (talk) 17:11, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Merge with Bubulcus
This article and Bubulcus deal with the same subject. The main difference is that this article uses the lumper approach and that one uses the splitter approach. This does not warrant two articles. Wikipedia should pick one approach and stick to it. I'm not sure which approach that should be, but it's worth noting that both Eastern cattle egret and Western cattle egret take the splitter approach. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the article should be called Cattle egret. Grey Clownfish (talk) 00:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * support this is a good idea. I think we can trim down a great deal of content that is being duplicated between this and the eastern/western entries. Shyamal (talk) 01:46, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, but not immediately. The two cattle egret species were recently split (IOC split them first, and other lists are now beginning to agree), and it will take some time to update the current FA-class article, which was written before the split. MeegsC (talk) 18:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. I don't think the cattle egret article needs much changing; we can just change the taxonomy and the common name used, and the remaining content can stay the same since the article refers to both (sub)species anyway. AryKun (talk) 16:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC)