Talk:Cave of the Patriarchs

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2022
In this phrase:

described the great jealousy with which the Muslims guard the sanctuary

Please change "guard" to "guarded", because this is speaking of events 160 years ago. Obviously the control situation described here was long ago replaced by what's described in the "Israeli control" section. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 05:25, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:03, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Word order in first sentence
situated 30 kilometres (19 mi) south of Jerusalem in the heart of the Old City of Hebron in the West Bank

Is there some particular significance to the precise sequence of words here? In general, we put a broader country location earlier in the introduction sentence, and while NPOV and the political issue makes it harder with this topic, we could still do better.

situated in the heart of the Old City of Hebron in the West Bank, 30 kilometres (19 mi) south of Jerusalem

Wouldn't this be better? The primary reason for mentioning Jerusalem is to give a vague sense of its location to readers who are poorly aware of the region's geography, but it's not critical. The critical bit — where it's located, both specifically (Hebron) and regionally (West Bank) — ought to go before the vague-sense bit. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 05:17, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Leading phrasing in first paragraph
Last sentence in first paragraph makes a note regarding the historicity of the patriarchal narratives. Similar comments are made in other related entries. Concern is with the word "most". The language leads the reader to believe that a comprehensive survey of Historians was performed and the conclusion is that at least 51% of them hold this opinion.

Propose changing this word to "many," where the citations are some of those historians who support this view.

Even better would be a brief section (or link) to a survey of academic views regarding the historicity of the patriarchs and the patriarchal narratives. Trawls-nit (talk) 17:20, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Bordeaux
There is a spelling mistake in the mention of the "pilgrim of Bordeaux". Bordeaux is wrongly spelled "Bordaux". 1899Vic (talk) 16:37, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Fixed. Feline Hymnic (talk) 16:50, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 January 2024
In the first paragraph, it references most historians dismiss as mythology. But the statement is subjectively untrue. The word most should be changed to some as this would be more accurate. Digimes (talk) 16:49, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. M.Bitton (talk) 17:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Mention on the historicity of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
Including a sentence that alludes to the fact that most historians believe Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being mythological seems unnecessary, given that adherents of the Abrahamic faiths believe them not to be historical. 87.208.30.220 (talk) 11:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 May 2024
I am requesting that the statement made,”most historians believe the story of Abraham, Isaac, and and Jacob is mythological,” be remove from this page. The statement is inaccurate conjecture based on someone’s opinion and personal religious beliefs. I hold a Masters in Divinity from Liberty University and have never heard a credible scholar argue the historical authenticity of the patriarchal accounts. 2601:582:8500:2370:59EB:AAA6:2680:1119 (talk) 09:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The sentence is supported by 2 references. Please provide reliable sources for the change you want to be made. Your personal experiences are not reliable, see WP:OR.   [[User:CanonNi ]]  (talk • contribs) 04:04, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

700 years?
Are there any actual historical documents that show that the Cave was forbidden to Jews for 700 years and that was actually enforced? I've seen other examples of purported rules that are contradicted by historical sources, and this one seems to be supported only by popular tales. Mcdruid (talk) 00:49, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, this contradicts the more complicated story set out earlier in the article. The source is clearly non-WP:RS (and pretty POV). It gives its own source as "The Jewish community of Hebron" plus, yes, Wikipedia! I'll take out that part of the sentence. Johnbod (talk) 02:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Johnbod Can you clarify what you think contradicts? As far as I can see, the latest Jewish entry into the cave mentioned on this page is Benjamin of Tudela, who would have entered in 1170 CE. Jacob ben Netanel haKohen (c. 1175) was also able to access it after paying a large bribe, and Maimonides entered at least partway in 1165. Samuel ben Samson accessed the first cave in 1210. But all of these are more than 700 years before Goren got there in 1967. Starting with the Chronicle of Florence (c. 1315) Jewish sources report that Jews were only allowed to stand at a certain spot partway up a staircase from which once could peer into the building through a window, apparently the same spot used into the British period. Both Christian and Jewish travelers were turned away equally—see Christian Travels in the Holy Land by Michael Ish-Shalom. GordonGlottal (talk) 03:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, a) the source used was clearly non-RS, b) 1315 is (a bit) too late for "700", and c) we lack proper referenced sources that the various restrictions were continuous over a period of many centuries and changes of regime. Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The 1315 report is that they weren't allowed in; the latest recorded Jewish entry is 1210. So 757 years before Goren. Similarly for Christians, Burchard of Mount Sion visited the cave c. 1280 but Philippus Brusserius c. 1350 reports that Christians are already not allowed. Acre fell in 1291; if access was cut off then, that's 676 years. There are consistent reports for the entire period. In the 15th century, for example, Obadiah of Bertinoro and Meshullam of Volterra both confirm that Jews are banned. This subject is discussed generally in Ish Shalom pp. 100-101. Anyway the "about 700 years" previously on this page seems pretty accurate. GordonGlottal (talk) 03:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * By all means write that up (the bits not there already) with proper referencing - and perhaps a measure of caution. The "reports for the entire period" may be consistent, but as you have presented them they are extremely spotty. In no other area of history would we be happy to assume that a situation described at a particular date remained the case 200 or more years later. Johnbod (talk) 12:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have seen similar claims of such bans, but then have run across stories where the ban is not enforced or seems to have been forgotten. I can't remember the specific instance though.
 * The point is that a blanket claim is likely wrong: did the mosque have a guard in front of it the whole seven centuries? Mcdruid (talk) 06:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, it is in regard to the Temple Mount Talk:Temple Mount/Archive 5. Although the Wikipedia article still claims that "the Ottoman authorities continued the policy of prohibiting non-Muslims from setting foot on the Temple Mount" The source, as I point out, is poor to non-existent.
 * And that is not considering the habit of humans to break laws: "Despite rabbinical decrees prohibiting access to the [Temple Mount] mountain and the death penalty threat for any Jew caught on the mountain, the deep-seated Jewish attachment to the Temple Mount remained strong. An unknown number of Jews ascended the mountain surreptitiously during these centuries. No records were kept of these visits because of their clandestine nature, but occasional references in Muslim court records and travelers' accounts give evidence of their occurrence" https://www.meforum.org/3556/temple-mount#_ftnref35 Mcdruid (talk) 08:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)