Talk:Cave painting/Archive 1

Lascaux
In answer to your question regarding cave painting, Robot was the name of the dog who discovered the cave paintings at Lascaux (fell into hole and was found barking at the paintings). --Daniel C. Boyer


 * does the dog itself really need an article? Woudln't a mention on the Lascaux page be enough? -- Tarquin 20:41 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think a mention on the Lascaux pag would be adequate, as Robot didn't really accomplish anything else. --Daniel C. Boyer

Shouldn't this be deleted if more information hasn't been added? Wikipedia is NOT a dictionary. - Kricxjo


 * IMHO, no. Cave painting is certainly worthy of an encyclopedia article. Just because this entry is only a few lines long is no reason to delete it; it'll be filled out over time. That's the spirit of Wikipedia. Atorpen 17:34 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

'''Oldest multimedia? ''' According to a recent article in the Wall Street Journal almost all such prehistoric decorations, both cave paintings and ancient rock paintings in the American West, are located where there is some unusual echo or other sound effect. Sorry I don't have the citation, but maybe someone else well know more about it and can add something. Ortolan88


 * Does anybody know any details about the stone hand axe found in a Spanish cave that's on display in New York right now? It was supposedly found in the largest grouping of hominid fossils (Home heidelbergensis) ever found.  -- Zoe

[http://www.drakensberg-tourism.com/bushman-rock-art.html This is an interesting link about Drakensberg, but is an advert for a tour company, so I don't want to put it on the page. A recent BBC article on Drakensber Mark Richards 17:24, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Improvement drive
Graphics is currently nominated to be improved by WP:IDRIVE. Vote for it if you want to contribute.--Fenice 20:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Geographic scope
Why isn't there any info on cave paintings in Asia or the Americas? I know for a fact that there is a lot of cave art in Asia.  SCH ZMO  ✍ 19:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC) I agree, i was studying this in social studies and wondered about it as well. Adolph172 There are cave paintings in the Americas which definitely should be part of this article. Surely the Cueva de las Manos in Santa Cruz, Argentina, (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patagonia for information) which are believed to date from around 8,000 BCE qualify for inclusion here, and that's only one site! 75.163.9.103 (talk) 22:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The preponderance of cave art is in Europe, so the article naturally reflects that. There's not enough space to mention every cave. This is not to say that there was more or better cave art in Europe. Guthrie explains that there's a taphonomic bias that left this large legacy of art in Europe -- simply that the conditions were right for preservation. TimidGuy (talk) 11:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

POV removed, pending citation
Looking around, I could find little substantiation of the idea that the paintings were widely believed to be a creationist hoax. It's more than possible that the referenced Emile Cartailhac did indeed believe the Altamira paintings to be a "creationist hoax", but I can only find that he later issued a Mea Culpa for having believed the paintings were a hoax...no mention of creationism. Furthermore, I would question the importance of the views of a single prehistorian - and would further assert that this basically-insignificant information may simply be intended to make "evolutionists" look silly. I have seen multiple instances of similar POV on wikipedia. The assertion in question is simply too insignificant, too poorly sourced, and too POV to remain without proper citation of a primary source. 68.162.17.105 19:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

copyvio problems with Laas Gaa'l article -- can anyone help?
Hi all -- The article on the Laas Gaa'l paintings (which was recently featured on the front page as a "Did you know?" item) contains some text plagiarized from a BBC article, and the image also appears to be a copyvio from the BBC. The person who originally created the article using the plagiarized text has become very combative, and keeps deleting the copyvio tags. If anyone has the expertise to help in rewriting that article without the plagiarisms, that would be very helpful. I would also appreciate it if some other people could take a look at the discussion on the article's talk page, because the situation seems to be degenerating into an edit war, which I don't want to get involved in.--24.52.254.62 04:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I found nothing here about Bhimbetka - the largest and oldest cave painting site in India. Though the quality of the drawings can not be compared with Alta Mira, they are said to be 10,000 years old. Could someone please give more information? D.Mitra


 * Unless someone adds a section on "oldest cave paintings by region," then the Indian caves are not exceptional. Every region has its oldest cave art (some of it fairly recent - India's caves are of interest because they coincide, most likely, with the influx of PIE speakers from the northwest.  It would be hard to write an article on all the cave paintings in the world.  Focusing on the oldest and best known is, so far, the strategy - someone who wants to add a section on other areas would have quite a bit of work cut out for them.--LeValley 06:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Guthrie and Stone
I'm wondering about some of the material related to Guthrie and Stone. It talks about human figurines, goddesses, etc., but there are only a couple human figures among the cave paintings in Europe, and they are more like stick figures than goddesses. It almost seems like this material shouldn't be here. I feel like this article gets off track. TimidGuy 21:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Russian cave
Someone added this in the Europe section but I moved it here:


 * Kopova, near Ufa, Russia

It doesn't belong in the Europe section. If we can find out more info about it, then we could create a separate section on it, TimidGuy 11:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

End dates
I am puzzled by "The practice died out 10.000 years ago". On Sicilia the quite extensive eneolithic paintings (.. complicati e astrusi arzigogoli lineari e geometrici) in the 'Grotta dei Cavalli' probably date from 3rd mill BC (Tusa). --Nedermaen 21:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info. I was going by what the source says that I was using -- the book The Cave Painters by Curtis. I added a qualifier to allow for exceptions. Does that help? TimidGuy 14:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thanks.

Although I think more accurately would be: "Other examples may date as late as the Early Bronze Age, but the well known prolific and sophisticated style from Lascaux and Altamira died out about 10,000 years ago".

I'm no expert but I'd like to make additional suggestions based on: "Sicily Before History" Robert Leighton "Sicilia Preistorica" Sebastino Tusa "Atlas of Ancient Archaeology" Jacquetta Hawkes My own 'field work', ha, ha. Repeat these are suggestions only.

1) I would suggest that "Cave Art" is a better title for the entry;  with a pointer from "Cave Paintings" and a 'see also' from "Rock Art"   and "Petroglyphs". Point 2) will clarify. 2) There seem to be distinct styles in these works:  a) The well known sophisticated painted figuratives (mainly animals      it seems) from Lascaux, Altamira, etc. All associated with our Cro-Magnon grandparents? b) Sculpted three dimensional animals as in Cap Blanc (les Eyzies).  c) Primitive painted stick figures and symbols on Sicily; similar to       CavePainting1.jpg in the entry (Whence that example?). d) Sophisticated engraved figures (animals and humans) on Sicily.  e) Silhouettes or outlines of hand, feet, leaves etc. (handprints). (f) Simple unexplained scratches and hatches.) 3) Sicily should be added, I know half a dozen good examples (Leighton     lists several more): Grotta Audura - extensively documented, but, I believe, undated. Grotta dei Genovesi - extensively documented. Style d) is reportedly        12.000 years old. Also style c), but I cannot find dates. Grotte Niscemi - Style d) (I can provide a reasonably clear photo).     Grotta dei Cavalli - Style c) (Neolitico Medio e Finale (Tusa)) (Similar to Porto Badisco (Apulia) and therefore Middle         Neolithic-Early Copper (Leighton)). Grotta Racchio - Style d) a deer and goats; but I could only find        less exciting scratches f). Grotta dei Signora - confusing, may be 'modern', I cannot find references.

This is probably more than you asked for. I'd be happy to follow your lead on how to proceed,--Nedermaen 19:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's really great that you're taking an interest in this article. It was a hodgepodge when I first began looking at it, and had a fair amount of vandalism that had been there a while. You seem knowledgeable. I don't have much time at the moment, but my quick impression is that we add a short section about Sicily and direct readers to a separate article on Sicily's paintings. I would love to organize the article around the distinct styles you outline. And I would love to separate out the rock painting, given that there's already an article on that. I'm glad you pointed that out. I can see your point about "cave art." I guess my only reservation would be that the term "cave paintings" is so widely familiar. I would be inclined to reorganize the article along the different styles, and to have the first part be about painting. Then a major section on cave art. Just some quick thoughts. Will be back later or tomorrow. Thanks so much for your interest in this article. TimidGuy 11:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I added your suggested sentence to the article. TimidGuy 15:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent material
I'm putting here material that was recently added. There are serious problems with the writing. A very small portion of the material is marginally accurate but much of it is in inappropriate style for an encyclopedia and appears to be vandalism. Further, much of it is speculative. It's possible that a few points could be included but it would need to be extensively rewritten. TimidGuy 12:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course, I appreciate the humor. : ) TimidGuy 15:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

More information
DAMASCUS (Reuters) - French archaeologists have discovered an 11,000-year-old wall painting underground in northern Syria which they believe is the oldest in the world Reference: Khaled Yacoub Oweis Thu Oct 11, 12:05 PM ET The 2 square-meter painting, in red, black and white, was found at the Neolithic settlement of Djade al-Mughara on the Euphrates, northeast of the city of Aleppo, team leader Eric Coqueugniot told Reuters.

"It looks like a modernist painting. Some of those who saw it have likened it to work by (Paul) Klee. Through carbon dating we established it is from around 9,000 B.C.," Coqueugniot said.

"We found another painting next to it, but that won't be excavated until next year. It is slow work," said Coqueugniot, who works at France's National Centre for Scientific Research.

Rectangles dominate the ancient painting, which formed part of an adobe circular wall of a large house with a wooden roof. The site has been excavated since the early 1990s.

The painting will be moved to Aleppo's museum next year, Coqueugniot said. Its red came from burnt hematite rock, crushed limestone formed the white and charcoal provided the black.

The world's oldest painting on a constructed wall was one found in Turkey but that was dated 1,500 years after the one at Djade al-Mughara, according to Science magazine.

The inhabitants of Djade al-Mughara lived off hunting and wild plants. They resembled modern day humans in looks but were not farmers or domesticated, Coqueugniot said.

"There was a purpose in having the painting in what looked like a communal house, but we don't know it. The village was later abandoned and the house stuffed with mud," he said.

A large number of flints and weapons have been found at the site as well as human skeletons buried under houses.

"This site is one of several Neolithic villages in modern day Syria and southern Turkey. They seem to have communicated with each other and had peaceful exchanges," Coqueugniot said.

Mustafa Ali, a leading Syrian artist, said similar geometric design to that in the Djade al-Mughara painting found its way into art throughout the Levant and Persia, and can even be seen in carpets and kilims (rugs).

"We must not lose sight that the painting is archaeological, but in a way it's also modern," he said.

France is an important contributor to excavation efforts in Syria, where 120 teams are at work. Syria was at the crossroads of the ancient world and has thousands of mostly unexcavated archaeological sites.

Swiss-German artist Paul Klee had links with the Bauhaus school and was important in the German modernist movement.

Prehistory
Me Og, also known as Og or Ogg was a Cro-Magnon who was the leading inventor, scientist and mathematician of his day. He lived approximately 30,000 years ago in what is now Europe, and was responsible for many discoveries. Og's mate, Ugga, developed a numerical system which used a rudimentary form of base thirty.

The names Me Og and Ugga (or Og or Ogg) have been interpreted, translated, and transliterated through the study of linguistics and cryptography, by means of cave paintings, which also served as an early alphabet. (See http://www.historyofscience.com/G2I/docs/timeline/index.shtml; Notation dans les gravures du Paléelithique Supérieur, Alexander Marshack, 1970; The Roots of Civilization, Alexander Marshack, 1972; http://home.sou.edu/~morganm/cavepaint.html, Houghton Mifflin web page, http://www.rundetaarn.dk/engelsk/observatorium/archaeoas.htm, Hugh Thurston, Early Astronomy, Springer Verlag New York 1994, Astronomisk tidsskrift nr. 4/1986, 2/1987 og 2/1994, Jens Vellev, Danske solure fra middelalderen, Hikuin, 6/1980, Eden and Lloyd, The book of Sun-dials, Bell & sons, 1900;  E. Laumann Jørgensen, Stjerner, Sten og Stænger, Arkæo-Astronomi i Danmark, Hernov 1994.,Hu and Wen, Asian prehistory,1981.)

Cave Paintings as Early Writing
One of the most surprising findings was a cave in France at Chauvet-Pont-D'Arc. In 1994, Jean Chauvet discovered this cave with amazingly sophisticated cave paintings estimated to be 31,000 years old (Zoogoer, Smithsonian, July-August, 1997). Cave paintings include animals that were not on the menu. There are drawings of various dangerous beasts. There is a link between these cave paintings and early pictographic writing. Furthermore, hundreds of other caves paintings have been discovered. (see Archeology magazine, When the Reindeer-Hunters came to Cro-Magnon, Odyssey, May, 2004, pp. 36- 39). Moreover, the Cro-Magnon cave of Les Eyzies the city today regarded as the once upon a time capital of pre-history in France.

Figures of birds in this important Cro-Magnon cave are apparently the precursor of the hieroglyph that became the letter a or aleph. In addition to living creatures are geometric figures (Zoogoer, Smithsonian, July-August, 1997) that constitute an early form of writing, time-keeping, and computation. Until recently, it appeared that “preliterate” cave artists developed drawing and writing 15,000 to 25,000 years ago in places like Lascaux, France. Now, it looks as if proto-writing goes back much further. On a sandstone mountain and on surrounding stones, scientists discovered thousands of small, carved circles. These circles were also found on button-like stones which average 1.2 inches in diameter. All of these circles date from more than 60,000 years ago. Archaeologists calculate that it would have taken 900 days for a person working alone eight hours per day to carve the buttons. The circles must have been “of enormous cultural importance” to those who carved them (Wilford, 1996, Sheridan, Drawing, Writing, and the New Literacy, 1997).

Cro-Magnon Speech, Words, and Names
Furthermore, a well-formed larynx developed in Cro-Magnons approximately nearly 300,000 years ago, allowing Cro-Magnons to speak using vowel sounds like ah, ee and oo as well as consonents such as g and m. Most experts believe that speech developed gradually.Anatomist Jeffrey Laitman of Johns Hopkins University studied the development and position of the human larynx by examining the base of hominid skulls. Laitman discovered that Australopithecus had vocal tracts much like living apes. He was unable to study the base of Homo habilis crania as they are fragmentary, but Homo erectus had a larynx with an equivalent position to that of an 8-year-old modern child. He beleives that it was after 300,000 years ago, with the appearance of archaic Homosapiens, that the larynx assumed its modern form and position, leading to a rich range of sounds. (M. Fagan, The Journey From Eden, London: Thames and Hudson, 1990, p. 87; The Lapedo Child, THE Szeleta Men, and the Convergence to Leading Cultures, B. Lukács, President of the Matter Evolution Subcommittee of the Geonomic Scientific Committee of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, CRIP RMKI H-1525 Bp. 114. Pf. 49., Budapest, Hungary)

Therefore, from the cave paintings found, using well-established techniques, the pictures form words m-ee,ah-g, and oo-g-ah which we transliterate as Me Og and Ugga respectively. Since drawings of a man and a woman were found near these words, they are almost certainly their names.

In addition, cave drawings show the man creating and using tools; a primitve bow, an early arrow, and a wheel in the form of a nearly perfect circle. The man is sometimes depicted as a human-beast hybrid. Of course, he used the atlatl but probably did not invent it, since the atlatl has been used for at least 40, 000 years (see Ingenious Machines web site). The bone calculator has been found. See the references under the article history of mathematics, section on prehistory.

Cave Paintings Tell About a Culture
Maturity was at age thirteen years, as indicated by bone calculators using base thirty for numbers of days that passed, when Me Og went through his rite of passage, which included feats of strength, hunting skill demonstrated by killing European cave lion (Panthera leo), display of pain tolerance, ability to read cave paintings in a chant, followed by a party with tribal music, dance, and food. Cave paintings of European lions and of the traditions of the day have been found (Hu, European and Asian Prehistory,1973,, Wen, Asian Prehistory and Watt, European Prehistory, Archaeology ).

Me Og was responsible for the invention of the bow, the modern arrow, an improved sling, the bone calculator, and a nearly perfect circular wheel, according to the story told by cave paintings.

Og, Ugga, and Base-Thirty Arithmetic
Many female Cro-Magnons kept records of their monthly cycles (again, see article on history of mathematics and the references under pre-history). However, it was Ugga who suggested to Og that they build a bone calculator. Bones of animals that had been used for food and skins were joined by sinew. Using her monthly periodic cycle as a base, Ugga suggested to Og that the bones be arranged so that the rotation of the first bone through thirty turns would then move the next bone, then the next, and the next. Consequently, they were able to compute values up to 30-cubed, that is, 30 to the third power, or 27,000.

Communication
"Humans are symbol-making creatures. We communicate by symbols -- growls and grunts, hand signals and drawings painted on cave walls in pre-historic times. Later we developed languages, associating sounds with ideas. Eventually Homo Sapiens developed writing, perhaps first symbols scratched on rocks, then written more permanently on tablets, papyrus, and paper. Today we transmit symbols -- coded digital signals of voice, graphics, video and data -- around the world at close to the speed of light." From: Bell Labs Celebrates 50 years of Information Theory.

Contributions to probability theory
Og and Ugga contributed to probability theory, especially empirical measures. Og say: How many buffolo we catch this moon? Ugga say: three. Og ask: How many we try to catch? Ugga say: thirty. So empitical measure of 3/30 = 0.1 was invented.

Blombos Caves
I'm moving here a comment that was top-posted by an anonymous user and that messed up the formatting of the Talk page:

In the BLOMBOS CAVES in South Africa there have been found cave art including decorative beads and bones with indents SUGGESTING COUNTING and geometric shapes on them that date back to 140000 yrs they have also found evidence of fishing,further more the ISHANGO BONES found in africa date back to 37000 yrs old making it the worlds oldest discovered mathmatical artifact the bones demonstrate multiplication division prime numbers.if u dont believe me type in BLOMBOS CAVES OR ISHANGO BONES in ur wikipedia browser ME OG was was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayy behind the powercurve.

Sounds like an interesting discovery. What's with ME OG, though? Why did someone put all that stuff in the article and now this anonymous editor is again referencing it? Something in popular culture? TimidGuy (talk) 12:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Problem in first para of article
The text says: "The earliest known rock paintings are dated to the Upper Paleolithic, 40,000 years ago, while the earliest European cave paintings date to 32,000 years ago." The rest of the article doesn't mention any rock paintings older than the oldest European ones, and actually mentions Chauvet as the oldest known painting. This fits with what I know, but I don't know enough to go and edit the text myself. Are there actually older known cave paintings outside Europe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sciamanna (talk • contribs) 20:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like to cut all mentions of rock painting from this article, since there's a separate article on that. I do believe that African rock art dates earlier than the European cave paintings. TimidGuy (talk) 20:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh shoot. I confess that I hadn't even noticed that "cave painting" and "rock painting" referred to two separate things -- I'd assumed they were two ways of referring to the same thing. Tells you how little I know, but also maybe this should be made clearer in the article(s). (Oh and sorry for not signing my previous comment. I'm learning.) Sciamanna (talk) 09:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added a note on the Talk page of the article on Rock art suggesting that we move all the info on rock art that's in this article to the rock art article. Maybe this will help avoid the confusion. TimidGuy (talk) 12:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Deleted Merlin Stone and Graham Hancock
I deleted the information sourced to Merlin Stone and Graham Hancock. Both of these individuals have produced theories that are very controversial. Per WP:FRINGE I think they are best not included here and that would should stick with the more mainstream sources.

In a thread above I also questioned Guthrie. My mistake. I'm reading his book, and it's excellent. Very scholarly, based on published research. I may use it as a source for some of the information in this article that isn't yet sourced. TimidGuy (talk) 15:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Gallery
The gallery is pretty useless without explanations on where and when. Some of the pictures don't even seem to be cave paintings. Could someone with the relevant expertise please clean up this section? Thanks.--85.177.157.97 (talk) 00:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Pic without caption
This picture is useless and misleading without a proper caption. Where are these alleged cave paintings?
 * I agree, it shouldn't be there. It looks like rock art rather than a cave painting. Thanks for removing. TimidGuy (talk) 00:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Oldest drawings: controversy
I edited: the Chauvet paintings are possibly 32,000 years old according to radiocarbon dating. However, some researchers believe the drawings are too advanced for this era, and they question this age. Reference:

Paul Pettitt. Art and the Middle-to-Upper Paleolithic transition in Europe: Comments on the archaeological arguments for an early Upper Paleolithic antiquity of the Grotte Chauvet art. Journal of Human Evolution, 2008. Fleabox (talk) 17:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding. Seems good to note this issue. TimidGuy (talk) 20:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the date is looking good for Chauvet Cave after several kinds of dating have been done. However, there's now an older cave - in Italy, under study:  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1000653.stm   These "tablets"  were apparently once on the ceiling of the cave, which has fallen down.  They date to at least 32,5000 and probably older - about 36,000. If true (and I believe those dates are very good), then it gives a history of the migration of the cave painters into France - through northern Italy and explains the trail of similar art between Kiev and Southern France.  It may make the Alpine foothill region the epicenter of paleolithic art activity (and of much more, since the southern Alpine region has lots of other interesting facts indicating it's the crossroads between the Black Sea region and France).  I don't have the academic citation for the Fumane Cave findings right in front of me, but I hope to get time to add it to the article sometime.--LeValley 18:17, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

New sources on dating
Some new research on dating is getting attention. I don't have time to look into it now, so am posting links here for later reference. "New dating method sheds light on cave art" and "Prehistoric cave paintings took up to 20,000 years to complete" This is really striking. Apparently some of the paintings could date to 35,000 years ago. TimidGuy (talk) 15:03, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

El Salvador
In a small eastern town of El Salvador called Corinto, there is the cave "EL Espiritu Santo" (Holy Spirit Cave), there are cave paintings dated aprx 2-3K BC.

Here are the pics,, they were taken by my friend Rene Aguiluz, and yes I do have his permission to use them, so feel free to include this cave in the "Americas" section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.148.110.156 (talk) 02:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

KeniKex 22:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KeniKex (talk • contribs)

Date of hyena painting
I noticed that the caption of the spotted hyena painting says that it's 30,000 years old, but the picture itself is titled '20,000 Year Old Cave Paintings Hyena.gif' - a difference of 10,000 years. As for myself, I have no idea which date is correct, but I did want to point out the disparity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.169.48.181 (talk) 05:18, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It's 20,000. See, there's really only ONE painting at 30,000 (maybe 32,000BP - I'd have to go back into the literature to find out, but 30,000BP would be the conservative date).  But, from around 22,000 on to about 12,000, cave painting flourished.  After 12,000BP portable art objects (which began to be produced around 28,000BP) remained in production while the caves were abandoned. This is too early to coincide with the introduction of farming - but it does coincide with the end of the last ice age.  In general, cave painting corresponds with the ebbing and flowing of ice in Europe.  When it warmed up, did people abandon the caves?  There were other types of housing (besides caves) all over Europe from 40,000 onward - the special use of caves is part of the story.  But, during the height of ice ages, it looks like the caves were art centers.--LeValley 06:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Dating on Chauvet Cave
The footnote for this date (from the Metropolitan Museum of art) says 30,000BP. Undoubtedly, the Met got its information from somewhere else - probably the work of archaeologist Clottes. The citation should be from Clottes and I believe the date is closer to 30,000BP. This is perhaps a small detail to some, but there appears to have been a period of habitation for the cave some 3000 years after the art was made (a period of 2000 years when the cave was used as a habitation site, about 25,000-27,000BP, during which no further art was added). The caves at Lascaux were painting some 10,000 years after the habitation of Chauvet began (and 13,000 years after the Chauvet Cave). The similarities in technique and materials are nevertheless striking. The reason it's interesting is that it leads us to ask questions about how often artists showed up in ancient populations, and to think about how such "traditions" could have survived with spurts of creativity occurring at such widely spaced points of time. We know the various groups of France traded with each other and traveled about - they would have seen each others' caves. Did Chauvet inspire all the others? It was painted just 2000 years before cave decorations (not paintings) appear in Wales and 2000 years before the string revolution - after which, paintings become more and more common, until they begin to trickle down to nearly nothing at 10-12,000BP. Why? The article should develop the dates clearly so that this story/mystery is laid out for the reader. There are, for example, climate basics that matter - which is why the better dates should be used, where ever possible.--LeValley 06:43, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 139.225.199.20 (talk) 14:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC) As an artist,I note the Chauvin work as an artist-at-work style. There is below the horse heads a prelim sketch-in of a 3D bull head. Why would so clearly a more mature rendering than that of later cave art be I do not know. But more advanced, more adept, more artistic is clear. Reading from a Celtic Myth book gave a hint: THE AUTHOR COMPARED THE SELF-DESCRIBED GREEK ART FOR ARTS SAKE TO THE CELTIC EXPRESSION. In other words, the right brain dominated these civilizations when they fell. As, of course, we are now. 139.225.199.20 (talk) 14:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

new location in europe
Ancient cave paintings found in Coliboaia cave Romania

http://www.physorg.com/news195668903.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.27.192.214 (talk) 04:54, 18 September 2010 (UTC)