Talk:Caving

Caving Food(s)
Whoever suggested that cavers eat vegetable soup is dead wrong. I have never seen cavers eat anything other than New England Clam Chowder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.2.38.107 (talk) 14:31, 14 June 2005(UTC)

Clam Chowder?!? I have only seen cavers eat mars bars in cave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.168.0.205 (talk) 16:23, 27 June 2006(UTC)

False. At least in Europe (or in some parts of Europe including at least Italy, France and Ucraine). Ukraine Krubera teams are used to cook soups with fresh vegetables: they bring entire vegetables bag inside Krubera for long trips (5+ days). You can easily check on various documentaries, also on Youtube. Bag preparation is often well described. On relatively short trips (2+days) is quite common to use dried soups: take a simple at some exploration reports Ankylosaurus08 (talk) 17:25, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Spelunking
Isn't "spelunking" a american English word? - User:Olivier

It is, but I thinkthat is now fairly clear.

Cavers in America *NEVER* call themselves "spelunker". A spelunker is a flashlight wielding cave vandal that gets in an accident and has to be rescued by cavers. A spelunker is an idiot. If you call an American Caver a spelunker it's an insult and flaunts your ignorance. Maybe this should be clarified in the article.Senor Cuete (talk) 19:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)Senor Cuete


 * Give me a break. According to the dictionary, they're synonyms, and the word "spelunker" has been used by experienced and inexperienced cave explorers alike. "Caver" elitism has no place in what's supposed to be a neutral article on the subject. Also, isn't it lovely when a group of enthusiasts—yes, unless they're professional guides, that's what they are, no matter how much skill and experience their hobby takes—comes up with new terminology for the sole purpose of confusing outsiders just so they can call them stupid and ignorant? TaintedMustard (talk) 09:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, clearly this topic could easily inflame an argument; I think aside from Senor Cuete's blunt and inflammatory language, he does have a point in that those who know about the sport would generally reserve the term "spelunker" for people that enter caves with little knowledge or expertise, essentially just to take a look and see what's there. "Caver" is then most often used for people that enter caves with the correct equipment and preparation and, despite the majority not being paid to do so as their profession (I assume this is your definition of "professional"), they endeavour to do so with a professional attitude and a respect for the caves. This may be a neutral article on the subject, but it should also allow non-cavers to benefit from some of the knowledge imparted by members of the caving community, and the spelunker/caver divide seems to be notable enough to avoid pinning both with the same term. All it needs is a carefully worded clarification in the article. Fattonyni (talk) 11:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

international
Very "American" oriented, what about internationally? And links to well known caves worldwide? FT2 17:40, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

re: international
Yes, I've just made a few changes to reduce the US bias, but there is clearly room for a lot more info on European (and other) caving nations, cave conditions, techniques and nomenclature. (Wookey, 2005-03-04)

I have added a more european approach in the History section. (Vincent, 2008-10-20) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.117.17 (talk) 01:04, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the page in 2016, it's very American again. Probably lots of Americans editing it. Put in a few more international and British references. Is the "Wookey" upthread known otherwise as the "Mendip Beer Monster"? Haven't seen you for years since the Hill Inn. Aidan Karley (talk) 13:10, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

cave explorers
Probably opening a can of worms, but I added some notable cave explorers. ? Perhaps it would be better to only include those who are dead --?-- though that's a little morbid. (19 May 2005)

Perhaps we could include the 'Cave Wars' of Kentucky in the 1920's? Or at least I think it was the 1920's...where people owned the stretch of caves in the Flint Ridge-Mammoth area, and violently competed for tourists...this was before they discovered that these caves were all one giiiinormous system. A famous caver called Floyd Collins was around this time, and he died in a tiny dangerous cave called Sand Cave.

Or perhaps we can improve the article Sarawak Chamber and put a reference here; being the largest cave chamber in the world, I think it's a little neglected. Lady BlahDeBlah 20:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree on the dead thing! Otherwise the list will always be incomplete, and endless.  I could easily add a half-dozen names.  I'd stick to 'historical' cavers, simply because that is manageable and 'live' cavers is not.  Or perhaps ONLY include internal links to cavers who have their own wiki page??  The current list includes some who are unknown outside their own country.Ian mckenzie


 * My preference, for all articles, is for lists of names to be restricted to those notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia. Otherwise it tells the reader nothing, no more informative than "blah blah", really, unless it can be followed up on.  For those who you believe notable enough but who do not already have an article, go ahead and create a stub w/ enough information that it doesn't get deleted for being non-notable. (Notability should be the standard, not dead or alive.)  --Kbh3rd talk  18:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree; that's what I meant. And it should be their *own* wiki page, not just being on another list somewhere else.Ian mckenzie

I deleted the list of notable cave exporers from the Caving page. To replace it I created a category Category:Cavers and added all cavers in this list who had an article to the category. For any other notable caver who deserves mention on wikipedia, create a stub and add it to Category:Cavers, as suggested above. For reference I archived the list from the Caving page here. &mdash;Kymacpherson 17:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikification and style cleanup needed
There are some sections in the article that still need wikification (mostly more links). Also see WP:NOT &mdash; such a "guide" style as used in the last sections is unfortunately not encyclopedic. If anyone has time, they could take a look and rub the article a bit...undefined&mdash;undefinedPt(T) 21:10, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Redlinks to knot names
I suspect a Figure-eight loop is the same as a Figure-of-eight loop? (Same for Figure-nine loop and Figure-of-nine loop.) Someone who knows for sure please correct this (or me). TowerDragon 17:36, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I found that both Figure-of-eight loop and Figure-of-nine loop link back to Caving, so I did change the links. TowerDragon 18:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Caving organizations
The US section seems to be inordinately large, compared to the others. Could not the regional associations be deleted, or included in the NSS entry? I don't see other countries including their regional associations.Ian mckenzie 03:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Elimination of links that go to the same site may be beneficial. Example: National Speleological Society (USA) Caving Forum http://forums.caves.org/, Cave Chat http://www.cavechat.org/

US Cavers Forum
For the second time I have removed this listing from "Caving organizations:United States" :
 * "U.S. CAVERS FORUM (USA) Features multiple cave discussion boards pertaining to cave exploration, Cave Conservation & Management, the Speleological related Sciences, caving events across the U.S., cave gear, cave trips, cave photography, cave news, and more! Cavers talking to cavers!" for the following reasons: (1) the appropriate place to list a chat forum is under "external links" (2) this article should be encyclopedic, so the promotional text is not appropriate. Kymacpherson 19:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Note: Originally the listing was placed in External Links.
 * All other "chat forums" should also follow the above guideline.

Movies about caving
Does the move The Cavern have anything to do with caving? I think not? Should it be removed form this page? Sonofmendip 21:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Photo changes
I've changed the photos at the start of caving because I didn't think they really illustrated anything about the process of caving. The three I've added show the equipment used and the gritty side of it, lest anyone think that it is a glamorous sport...

I don't think the photo from Stevens Gap illustrates much about caving per se, but it's a nice shot so I didn't mess with it.

--Dave Bunnell 18:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Not a sport
There is nothing competitive about spelunking/caving/whatever you want to call it, so I don't see how one could classify it as a sport. It is no more a sport than hiking through the woods or taking a walk in the park.


 * I would strongly disagree. There is a strong athletic portion to caving, and combined with the team aspects of most caving would qualify caving as a sport.
 * I realize that there is a "strong athletic portion" to caving (quotes used to give you credit, not to be a sarcastic punk =)). But I still think the lack of a competitive component disqualifies caving to be considered a true sport.
 * Not all sports are competitive. I have not heard of any formal competitions for mountain climbing for example.
 * --Romanticcynic 21:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * There are formal competitions for both mountain climbing and wall climbing. A google reveals many clubs/leagues that hold competitions for both teams of climbers and individuals.

Well there are competitions for caving skills at many caving conventions too, but I hardly think that contributes to it being a sport or not. There's also considerable competition between cavers in some (crowded) countries. BTW, most people do consider hiking and backpacking as sporting endeavours, despite the lack of 'competition'. Ian mckenzie 18:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Good. Let it stay divorced from sports. The last thing caves need are troupes of extreme sports fanatics traipsing around like the imbeciles they are. Cupbearer 08:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

gloves
In my experience gloves are needed not because of temperature, but to protect the hands; a cave formed by solution can have rocks with knife-sharp edges. They are also useful for inproving grip on rope. &mdash;Kymacpherson 01:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello. I don't think anyone doubts the usefulness of gloves, but I am not sure about the universality of glove use. To say that they are "almost always" worn is possibly not correct. It is, of course, a can of worms. Those who do not wear them, do so adamantly, those who wear them, likewise. It will be difficult to get a consensus. --5telios 09:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In some areas the limestone (etc.) is characteristically sharp, but not in others. In regions where caves are used regularly the limestone is often worn smooth anyway. They are very rarely worn in the UK for example. Though, out of interest, which gloves improve grip on rope? 134.83.1.234 16:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I like cheap work gloves from the hardware store. They are usually cloth with leather padding on the fingers and palm.  They work well in wet or dry conditions.  One time I tried rubber coated gloves; I thought they would work well in a wet cave but in fact they were a poor choice!  When I was rappelling I could smell the rubber burning :-)  Thanks for contributing to the article, have you considered creating a wikipedia account? &mdash;Kymacpherson 13:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "They are very rarely worn in the UK for example." -- This has not been my experience. It seems most UK cavers wear gloves; I've also met plenty who don't. Mike Hopley (talk) 21:58, 26 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Usage varies a lot, for various reasons, and the gloves used vary too. Personally I hate (loathe, detest, revile) using gloves, because of the tendency of the tips to get caught in rope equipment. But when diving or caving in snow-melt I'll wear wetsuit gloves, or thin woollen gloves under a pair of thin plastic "washing up" gloves. In rough-rock situations, I'll wear industrial protective gloves, but take them off to handle ropes. It is all as variable as ... well, caves. Aidan Karley (talk) 13:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

British Spellings
A few recent modifications to this article were made from an IP address. These changes included some decidedly British spellings. I don't have time to research the Wikipedia policies on this as I am currently packing for a caving trip. But, my feelings are that this is not an article about British caving and should be more neutral. Am I wrong in my feelings? I attempted to make the point on one of the words but it was changed back with the argument that that was the original spelling from the article. The original argument doesn't hold much weight with me as there is very little of the original text that has not been modified in some way and for good reason. Should these British spellings appear here; specifically karabiner, or carabiner and faeces or feces? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WTucker (talk • contribs) 17:55, 25 May 2007
 * WP:ENGVAR makes some recommendations on the topic. It seems to suggest that whatever variant of english is chosen should be used consistently throughout the article.  It also recommends sticking with the usage established by the page's original contributor.  &mdash;Kymacpherson 13:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * American spelling is not "more general" than British spelling, but equally specific. Wikipedia convention is to use the original spelling 87.127.69.85 18:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC).

Photograph in Safety Section
Dave, that picture of Marion O. is TERRIBLE. The way you've tipped your camera so that the trees are leaning to the left is disorienting. You should either re-crop it so the horizon is horizontal or use something else.Senor Cuete (talk) 01:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)Senor Cuete

Should we really be showing a vertical caver not wearing gloves in the Safety Section? Does that provide a bad example? Wayne Harrison (talk) 02:18, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I see no reason why it might provide a bad example. Do gloves make vertical caving safer? Personally I find that gloves tend to get tangled in the descender... The main point of the pic is the rope safety involved, as captioned. Fattonyni (talk) 01:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I have been teaching vertical rope safety for a very long time and I have seen several instances of safety issues where belay had to be invoked because of rope burns on the hands or where some hand injury was suffered. I would not and do not teach beginners to do vertical descent without gloves. Any loss of control is hard and painful to stop without gloves. That being said, I am more concerned with the constricting chest harness this caver is wearing. If he actually had to hang on that thing for even a few minutes, I suspect he would be in trouble from being unable to breath. I do think this photo does not represent the most exemplary practices for good, safe vertical work. WTucker (talk) 02:23, 6 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Wayne and WTucker raise a fair enough point. Personally, when I'm at belays I take my gloves off, put them inside my gear bag, and then do the changeover (up or down). One of the points of proper training is to know why to NOT get into bad situations, and the "burned hand teaches best" is one that can well be allowed at the training cliff. It's not a sport for the faint of heart after all. Besides, from the picture you can't tell if the abseiler has a second lock on the rope, e.g. looped around his back and a leg. Regarding his kit - he'd die of hypothermia in this country! (Which changes the considerations for rope burn.) All those karabiners! That's mostly mountaineering equipment, not caving equipment (and I use my abseil rack in the mountains more than a fig-8). At least, in Europe many of those would be much smaller mallions rapides.

Categories
I have removed the Extreme Sport category, as most cavers do not consider their sport Extreme. It is only some noncavers who think it might be. Ian mckenzie (talk) 15:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * All right, thanks! I initially added it only because the sport is mentioned in Extreme sport.  If you don't think it's properly considered one, perhaps you'd also like to mention it in the other article?  -Clueless (talk) 15:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Shall do. Ian mckenzie (talk) 16:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Doline
At the moment Doline redirects to sinkhole - which is not satisfactory. Does someone know enough about this to start a proper Doline article or is it OK if I botch it up? --5telios (talk) 13:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

G4 Underground
G4 Underground did a story on this, does this need to be quoted sited, or added to the article in any way? --Tryx3 (talk) 15:22, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * although where would they go to the bathroom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.236.86 (talk) 19:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The article covers this. It current says "Containers for securely transporting urine are also commonly carried. On longer trips, containers for securely transporting faeces out of the cave are carried". WTucker (talk) 00:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you really have to be an Archaeologist?
No object is aware of the title or credentials of the person touching it. Therefore, I removed the unsourced statement that only an archaeologist can touch artifacts in a cave without destroying them.--Bodybagger (talk) 17:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Please make it less american like because I am not american.
Read title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WindowsSeven (talk • contribs) 10:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup: Lead/overview
Seeing as the article now has a cleanup tag... Just wondering is there a good reason for the longer overview to be separated from the short lead section? Reading through it it seems to be quite a comprehensive introduction to the subject... I propose subsuming the "Overview" text into the lead. Fattonyni (talk) 01:25, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Team size for safety
"Using teams of several, preferably at least of four cavers." -- This practice is far from universal, and is not necessarily safer, depending on the nature of the trip. Especially when an expedition is exploring deep vertical caves, smaller teams can be better. E.g. OUCC expeditions to the Picos typically use teams of two, sometimes three cavers (almost never more than four). With a team of 4+, you tend to go slower. By 5 o'clock in the morning, you're significantly less safe than you were at midnight, because you haven't slept and you're knackered from climbing 600m of rope. Shorter trips are safer.

Obviously this affects the rescue scenarios. With a team of four, you can send two cavers out together while one stays with the casualty; with three, the caver going out is on his own; with two, you must decide whether to stay with the casualty or raise the alarm earlier.

Nevertheless, small team sizes are common practice in deep expedition caving, at least in Europe: the benefits seem to outweigh the risks. What makes sense in the context of a casual weekend bimble doesn't always transfer well to an expedition setting. Mike Hopley (talk) 23:06, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Trip
Does the word "trip" need some special disambiguation in relation to its use in caving. (Particularly "through trip", "exchange trip", etc.) Martinevans123 (talk) 22:53, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, but it could be added in etymology. "Cleanup trip" is another likely candidate. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:58, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, a good addition. But would this be three separate etymology additions? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:05, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe a subsection on "trips" describing the different kinds. This type of section though would be a clear candidate for sources needed however. Leitmotiv (talk) 23:09, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether sources would be called for. A sub-section like that would be a useful start, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:13, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it qualifies for sources because there is probably not enough to begin with and it may look like personal research. I like the idea, but it could get the axe, especially since it appears to be region specific, at least at first glance. Leitmotiv (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

weaseling
Griff just referred to this, i can see why, sort of the same thing, but amongst the rocks rather than in a cave system .... does it need a mention ? Dave Rave (talk) 20:55, 4 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Never heard of this practice, at least by this name. It sounds like a variant of "canyoning". As the "canyoning" page says, the sport can involve elements, techniques and equipment from mountaineering, caving, kayaking, swimming. It can be pretty damned serious itself, particularly since canyons almost by definition are the locus of rapid flooding.


 * Certainly there is overlap between the sports, and a cross reference seems appropriate. But inventing a new word or category ... well, if Dave Rave can cite sources, and the term refers to canyoning, then that alternative name (and sources) should be added to the Canyoning article. Aidan Karley (talk) 14:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)


 * sources ? only GRJones on a TV show, might have been something he used as a child, or it's more common in the UK ? Dave Rave (talk) 18:48, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Hardly being definitive, but certainly indicative, simple search for weaseling Dave Rave (talk) 08:22, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Peak Instruction Dave Rave (talk) 21:10, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Nutty Putty Cave
In case the article would benefit from a discussion of death while caveing/spelunking, and the closure of a cave by sealing the entrance with cement: Nutty Putty Cave.

John Edward Jones earned a Darwin Award for the Nutty Putty Cave accident.

Jeffrey Walton (talk) 20:06, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Spelunking checkered past
Are we sure that we want to include Spelunking in this article. It sounds dirty and dopey, maybe if we remove any mentions of it and just push on as cave exploring or something more PC more people might be into exploring caves. Spelunking sounds like something I would threaten to do to your sister if we were having an argument. e.g. I Spelunked your sister last night

Jeffrey Walton (talk) 04:20, 26 Nov 2021 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.174.4.161 (talk)
 * I'm sorry if that's where your mind goes...to threatening girls with whatever it is you are thinking. However, the terms Speleology and spelunking are derived from science, and are in use by the NSS - the National Speleological Society and other credible caving institutions as well as the scientific literature. Netherzone (talk) 01:09, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Etymology
"The base term caving comes from the Latin cavea or caverna, meaning simply, a cave."

Does it really? Is it not simply taken directly from the English word "cave"? Proteus (Talk) 13:15, 11 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I agree. I have removed it. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:23, 11 June 2022 (UTC)