Talk:Cecil Middleton

Peter Middleton
In short, so what? It doesn't matter whom Peter flew an airplane with. It doesn't matter who attended his funeral, because your source doesn't say they interacted at uni. It doesn't even say they were there at the same time, only that they were there in the same decade. He was also at uni in the same decade as MPs, probably even prime ministers, cabinet secretaries, actors, business men, and on and on and on. yawn. This is just trivia. The same applies to growing up in the same city. Leeds is not exactly an isolated village with a dozen residents. A whole lot of people grew up in Leeds, including, I am sure, a bunch of other people who were grandparents of notable people. It is so vague as to be uninformative. There is simply no reason to mention distant relatives here, just because one of them married well. Agricolae (talk) 12:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand.  It is Capt. Peter  Middleton -  Kate  Middleton's  grandfather  - who  flew  planes  in 1962   alongside  Prince  Philip.  There is  British  Pathe  footage  and  photos of the Prince  and  Capt.  Middleton   together. This information/photos  appeared in  the  UK  Daily  Telegraph, the  UK  Times (Obituary of  Peter  Middleton in 2010)   and other  UK  national  newspapers (and  internationally.


 * Oh, I didn't misunderstand it at all, I just find it not one bit as fascinating as you seem to. Do we understand a cricketer better by knowing that he had a cousin who flew a plane with someone famous? No.  Do we understand a cricketer better by knowing that he had a cousin who was photographed with someone famous?  No.  Do we understand a cricketer better by knowing that he had a cousin whose obituary appeared in the Times?  No, not in the least.  This is not a genealogy web site, and this is not a society page, so unless you have an independent biographical account of Cecil that is as fascinated by this particular relationship as you are, I see no reason to clutter up the article with irrelevant lists of cousins who knew important people. Agricolae (talk) 02:22, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Peter Middleton's  father  was Richard  Noel  Middleton  whose  family  law  firm  in  Leeds,  "Messrs.  Middleton and  Co.",  was  where   his  cousin  Ralph  Middleton  worked  as  a  solicitor.

Cecil Middleton is Ralph Middleton's brother.

It is proven  that  the cousins (naturally!!!) not only knew each other, but worked/relaxed/studied  together in  Leeds. Ralph Middleton  and  Kate's grt-grandfather Richard  Noel  Middleton   were both  members of the Yorkshire  Ramblers'  Club. Cecil Middleton and  Peter  Middleton (son of  Richard  Noel  Middleton who knew Ralph  Middleton  well as we  have  seen) were up at  Oxford in the  1930s. Ralph Middleton and his cousin  Peter  Middleton  both lived  on the same housing estate in Leeds;  the  "Alwoodley Garden/Park Estate".

Kate Middleton's  uncle  is Richard  Middleton  (who  attended  his  niece's  2011 wedding,  so yes,  she  knows  him. We know that  Kate  knows  her  first   cousin  Adam  Middleton  (son of her  uncle  Richard  Middleton)  as  she  chose  Adam  to be   godfather  to HRH  Prince  George,  Kate  Middleton's   eldest  child.

Richard Middleton   (Kate  Middleton's  uncle)  compiled in 2014 a  genealogical  history on-line of his  cousin  Cecil  Middleton's  grt-grandfather  who is  the   Rev. Andrew  Bloxam, nephew of  painter Sir  Thomas  Lawrence  and   grandfather of   Jane  Dorothy  Middleton, nee  Berney (died  1964).

Please accept  all of the  evidence  stating  that the  Middleton  cousins of  Leeds  all  knew  each other very  well. Thanks 175.33.49.35 (talk) 01:04, 1 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I see no point in any of this. What possible relevance could it have to this article that Kate Middleton knows Adam Middleton?  I don't care if Cecil and Peter they knew each other well - we are not in the habit of listing all of a subject's acquaintances, not without a source that paints the relationship as an important aspect of the subject's biography.  You can draw all of the six-degrees-of-separation chains of people knowing other people you want and it makes none of this interesting, let alone noteworthy.  This is a biography about a cricketer, one who wasn't more or less likely to send a ball to the boundary because a first cousin flew planes with someone important, or because that first-cousin's granddaughter knew her uncle's son.  Agricolae (talk) 02:22, 1 April 2020 (UTC)


 * You and I both  know  that  this  article  should  state:

Cecil Middleton was a  member of  the  Middleton family of  Leeds.

There are many  articles/newsreports/archives  to  support this statement -  including the research of  Kate  Middleton's  uncle -  that  Cecil  Middleton knew  Kate's  family very well. Shall you  do this  or  shall  I? 175.33.49.35 (talk) 03:23, 1 April 2020 (UTC)


 * No, we don't both know this. It shouldn't. And by the way, the self-published papers of Richard Middleton are not a reliable source, as defined by Wikipedia. See WP:NOTGENEALOGY - this is not a venue to publish family history for its own sake.  We learn nothing useful about Cecil by reading that a quarter century after this guy died, a cousin multiple times removed made a good marriage.  Agricolae (talk) 04:53, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The bigger problem here is that this whole exercise in trying to create a full-length biography about an obscure cricketer who only ever received passing mention anywhere is bound to create a mess, stuffed full of whatever obscure facts any particular editor takes a fancy to. He shouldn't even have an article. Agricolae (talk) 05:16, 1 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Calm down! -   no one is  trying to,  as  you  say, "create a full-length biography about an obscure cricketer".  (???)
 * Umm, that is the purpose of having a page - to give a full-length biography for its subject, who is an obscure cricketer. The very existence of the page demonstrates exactly what I said. Agricolae (talk) 15:31, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

You say, "We learn nothing useful about Cecil by reading that a quarter century after this guy died, a cousin multiple times removed made a good marriage". (???)  This  make  no  sense. My most recent   edit  does not mention any "good marriages"  or any  names. I simply  state that he  is  a member of the  Middleton family of  Leeds   who  have their own  Wikipedia page -  hence the link. It all  makes  sense. Cheers 175.33.49.35 (talk) 05:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * You are the one who keeps talking about Kate and her uncle here. What you should be asking is what exactly is the secondary source that gives Cecil the kind of substantial coverage that justifies a page at all?  A self-published family history written by a cousin is not a WP:RS, and passing mention in a photograph caption on a library web page really doesn't cut it either. We need a true reliable source about the subject or it is all just personal opinion what does and does not belong. Agricolae (talk) 15:31, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Just to emphasize something, this person's claim to notability is that he (supposedly) was a notable cricketeer. Do we say that Alastair Cook belonged to the "Cook family of Gloucester"?  No. And we don't say Joe Root was of the "Roots of Dore", nor that Jonny Bairstow was of the "Bairstows of Bradford".  We don't name the "Andersons of Burnley", "Woakes of Birmingham", "Broads of Nottingham" (or wherever his family originated), "Pietersens of Pietermaritzburg", nor "Gowers of Dar es Salaam".  This is not an article about someone notable as a holder of some inherited dignity where family dynastic membership is arguably a noteworthy aspect, it is about a cricket player, for which it is not. Agricolae (talk) 19:46, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

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 * Cecil Middleton 1931 University College, Oxford.jpg