Talk:Cel shading/Archive 1

Animatrix
Which movie from the Animatrix was cel-shaded? I don't recall this K1Bond007 03:36, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * It's wrong, anyone Animatrix espisodes use cel-shaded. Some parts was made by pure drawing, only this. --Mateusc 20:26, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Cel Damage
Why isn't this game listed under the examples? It has Cel in the name. Sheesh.
 * Because it's not very prominent. There's a separate list of cel-shaded video games for the more obscure ones. Andre ( talk ) 20:11, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Fear Effect first game with cel-shaded animation?
In the article, it is said that the "first video game to feature cel-shading was Jet Grind Radio for the Sega Dreamcast", released on November 1 2000. I believe that the first video game to feature cel-shaded animation was in fact Fear Effect for the Sony PlayStation, a title released January 31 2000.

Yours sincerely,

Grumpy Troll 09:08, 2 August 2005 (UTC).
 * I added Xenogears to the list. That game was released in 1998. From the article: "Xenogears also utilizes both traditional Japanese cel-animated scenes". Am I missing something? Jacoplane 19:28, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I did not know of the use of cel-shading in that game, so the statement in question will have to be modified to follow suit. Thanking you, Grumpy Troll 20:39, 2 August 2005 (UTC).
 * Is there any consensus on this? Perhaps more people could provide their opinion on what they feel is the first game. Provide sources. Jacoplane 19:55, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It all depends on whether or not people feel the first game featuring cel-shaded animation should be cited, then that would be Xenogears, or the first game extensively featuring cel-shaded graphics should be noted, in which case that would be Fear Effect. Though Xenogears was the first to feature cel-shaded animation, it didn't use exclusively cel-shaded graphics, whereas Fear Effect did. There is a need to disambiguate the term in question. I believe we should state the standing of each game, as to leave no uncertainty as for their status (e.g. Though Xenogears was the first video game to feature cel-shaded animation in certain scenes, Fear Effect was the first title whose graphics were entirely rendered using cel-shading). Grumpy Troll 11:16, 6 August 2005 (UTC).

Biased towards video games
Even though we are working on this game as the GCOTW, we should not lose sight of the fact that this is an old technique that has been used for a long time in making animations. The history section right now talks only about video games, which i think is unacceptable. I'm pretty sure just about every Anime film ever has used this technique. I think we should rename List of cel-shaded video games to something like List of products using cel-shaded animation, with sub sections for Games, movies and TV shows. Jacoplane 17:30, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, looking over Featured lists, most lists don't have the "List of" prefix, so I suggest naming the list Products using cel-shaded animation. Jacoplane 17:32, 2 August 2005 (UTC) . No that's not right, silly me. Jacoplane 17:53, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I would say that the first sentence of the article is not correct. It is not a technique "designed to make computer graphics appear to be hand-drawn". First of all it doesn't only apply to computer graphics, and secondly it doesn't need to be used to make it appear hand-drawn. An artist can use the technique to achieve different effects. Jacoplane 18:01, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Cel shading is, well, the shading of a cel. It can be done by hand or by computer, but most certainly does not have to be 3d NPR (non-photorealistic rendering).  I think the bulk of this article as it stands should move to a NPR article, and this article fixed to talk about Cel Shading in general.  --Tonsofpcs 04:43, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Well there are a lot of options, though IMHO merging with NPR is not one of them, "cel-shading" is a well known term within computer graphics and 3d art, so "hiding" it away under Non-photorealistic rendering and just leaving a stub-stub (two sentences) about hand drawn cel-shading makes no sence to me. The article could be renamed to just "cell-shading" and be expanded with more info on the hand drawn variaty (and non-game related digital users). We could make a "cell-shading" disambiguation page, and split this into Hand drawn cel-shading and Digital cel-shading or some such too. Although IMHO at the present time there is just not enough material to justify two seperate articles. I'd suggest expanding on the neglected sections first, and once there is more than a tiny stub-stub section on hand drawn cel-shading we can make a more informed discussion about how or if it should be split up.--Sherool 08:12, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

'Appearances' section excessive
The 'Appearances' section of the article aims to list some "of the prominent games and films that have featured cel-shading graphics", yet if features a plethora of video game titles which one could not really call prominent, and which should really only be kept to the list of cel-shaded video games (which could be more accurately and verbosely named, an appropriate title being for example 'List of video games featuring cel-shaded graphics'). These include, among others: These games generally received average reviews and paltry commercial interest, and many others listed in the section's list were similarly destined. They are in effect not prominent, critically or commercially, and should undoubtedly be removed from the section (unless its author meant to enumerate games that have prominently featured cel-shading graphics, which is the purpose of the aforementioned list of cel-shaded video games). Do others agree that these video games titles are in excess?
 * Auto Modellista
 * Cel Damage
 * The Iron Giant
 * Magic Pengel
 * XIII (game)

Yours sincerely,

Grumpy Troll 16:01, 3 August 2005 (UTC).
 * I would agree, except for The Iron Giant. It was made by Brad Bird, who went on to direct The Incredibles and was critically acclaimed. Jacoplane 17:52, 3 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. Joshfist 01:45, 2005 August 4 (UTC)
 * I removed the following entries from the said list:
 * Auto Modellista
 * Cel Damage
 * Futurama the game
 * Magic Pengel (The doodles)
 * Musashi: Samurai Legend
 * Treasure Planet
 * XIII
 * Yours sincerely,


 * Grumpy Troll 09:57, 4 August 2005 (UTC).


 * I disagree with the removal of XIII. It won the best of show award at ECTS and was quite a big budget title, and although it didn't do above average in sales, it was heavily marketed for its visual style. The demiurge 21:37, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Not only did it sell somewhat averagely, it also received damning reviews and was generally tagged as forgettable. You are right in saying that is was heavily marketed for its visual style, and for this reason, I am in effect reconsidering its removal. What do others think? Grumpy Troll 11:22, 6 August 2005 (UTC).
 * There probably wouldn't be any factual conflict in its inclusion. Overall, it did alright, and it was the first cel-shaded FPS (though I could be wrong). Personally, I would like to see it back on the list. Joshfist 02:30, 2005 August 7 (UTC)
 * I shall add it back to the list, then; any further discussion on the subject can be made in this thread. Grumpy Troll (talk) 11:09, 7 August 2005 (UTC).


 * I deleted Super Smash Brothers Melee and Wipeout 3 from the list,in my opinion the examples should list only games that do it exclusively and these two certaintly don't meet that criteria. Deathawk 01:31, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. That section didn't just cover video games, but also TV shows, movies, ads too. It is irresponsible to just keep the video game segment. Unless replacements of these sections are made, they should not be removed. Jacob Poon 01:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Toon shader merger
It has been suggested that Toon shader be merged into this article, yet it contains no information not yet present in the latter, though perhaps its image could be of use. The said illustration could be introduced into Cel-shaded animation and Toon shader may then serve as a redirection to this article. Do other participators agree?

Grumpy Troll 21:20, 4 August 2005 (UTC).


 * Yeah I agree, and sorry for being too lazy to just do it when I found the article. I was in a bit of a rush so I didn't want to blank that article with a redirect before checking wether or not it actualy had any usefull info not already here. IMHO that image could replace the Zelda screenshot in the intro part, and we can move Zelda down to the video game section or some such. --Sherool 21:41, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I made Toon shader a redirection to this article, placed the Toon shader illustration in the article header and moved the Wind Waker screenshot thumbnail to the Video games section. Grumpy Troll 21:55, 4 August 2005 (UTC).

Guide to cel-shading for game devs.
Here is an article intended to introduce game devs to the steps behind cel-shading: GameDev.net - Cel-Shading. I haven't read through it completely, but it might be useful. Joshfist 01:34, 2005 August 5 (UTC)
 * I'm adding it to external links. Jacoplane 19:56, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Modders cel-shade LoZ: OOT
Check it out. Interesting. Jacoplane 20:36, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * My, that is very interesting indeed, and also very impressive. Is it possible to download this modification (and the Super Mario 64 one as well), or is it illegal to do so and hence infeasible? Thank you for the reference, the eye candy alone warrants a visit. Grumpy Troll (talk) 20:55, 10 August 2005 (UTC).
 * More here. For downloading, I'm not sure how legal this is. I found this though I don't think that is the cel-shaded version. Jacoplane 21:05, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It is said that the Ocarina of Time cel-shading conversion shall soon be finished. The file you link to is the high-resolution textures version. (Do you believe it is legal to download these modifications if one owns the original version of the game?) Grumpy Troll (talk) 21:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC).
 * Probably not. The artwork in video games are usually copyrighted which does not allow you to make derived works. Probably the EULA of the game explicitly states you cannot do this. I have a feeling though they won't be losing any sleep over this as it promotes a fan community and I think they worry much more about things like Bittorrent piracy. That being said, Nintendo is a japanese company. In japan it is very common for fans of popular mangas to create their own versions (see Dōjinshi). While not strictly legal I don't think anyone has ever been sued for doing this. I need to think about this some more. Jacoplane 21:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

First real time cel-shaded videogame was Wacky Racers
The first released real time cel-shaded video game was Wacky Racers for the Dreamcast. Although I have no source, I have heard that Jet Grind/Set Radio was the first game ANNOUNCED to use cel-shading. Also, Fear Effect did not use real time cel-shading, it used static textures to give the appearance of cel-shading. Another game to do cel-shading with static textures was Mega Man Legends on the Playstation, which was ported to the Nintendo 64 under the title Mega Man 64.

-

It may have a cartoon style, but it is not Cel Shaded.

-

This topic came up in the letters page of an old Edge where they agreed that in a particular country/region Wacky Racers was the first cel-shaded videogame.

Like rotoscope?
Could this be seen as some sort of rotoscope process? Instead of live-action frames, 3D computer animated frames are used instead. And instead of only rotoscoping characters, all the objects and all of the background and so on are rotoscoped. And instead of using human hands, a computer program is used for the process. Imagining some of Disney's most famous animated features being made this way (where human hands being used to clean up the images when and where needed). The results would have been much more impressive than just the advanced multiplane camera alone could have created.

---

This is not really like rotoscoping at all. If you look at the actual way that it is done on a computer then it becomes incredibly obvious exactly what's happening, and let me tell you, it has no real relation to rotoscoping. Vjasper 02:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Cel-Shading resources
CyberCoalition.com This site aims to bring the cel-shading community together. Perhaps a section with places to find additonal information and techniques on the use of cel-shading.

No mention of The Lion King
The wilderbeast stampede sequence in Disney's The Lion King (1994) featured what is perhaps the first use of cel-shading in an animated movie. It was done remarkably well for its time and was a milestone in animation history. I think it should be mentioned somewhere in this article.

Blender 3d
An open source 3d modeler, Blender3d is capable of rendering 3d models that appear as though they are cell shaded using the toon shading options. Finally I get to modle Wind Waker Link like I always wanted... =)

Schwab?
Are the Schwab "Talk to Chuck" commericals done using Cel-shading? It looks like it, but I'm not too sure. Can anyone here clarify for me? Thanks. -Odin 22:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Examples
The page could use far more examples, I guess we have copyright concerns?Thomas B 00:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Zelda: WW screenshot
I adore how well Zelda: The Wind Waker pulls off its cel-shading effects, but it's not very well visible in the screenshot featuring a floating Link. Or rather, it's not easy to differentiate it from a work of traditional 3D model rendering. Tass-AJ @ 125.63.225.250 13:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I was about to say the same... Can we find a better shot? Shinobu 02:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * A picture of phantom Gannon would be good because he has an outline, making it more obvious its cel shaded.74.38.99.188 02:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Digital animation: different methods
The article shows only one method of doing this, but I've seen other methods as well. Shinobu 03:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Taking the double derivative of the z-buffer (works well with raytracers).
 * On the backface drawing part, shift all vertices in the direction of their normal (fast, can be done beforehand, works well with existing 3D-engines, can look better near vertices).
 * Generating outline and shadow using a reflection map (may require multiple passes, difficult to tune so it works correctly).

History of cel shading in tv/movie animation?
The history section doesn't mention cel shading in anything other than video games. I think it's use in tv/movies should also be mentioned. Also, the list of tv/animation that uses cel shading is a little confusing. Some of the shows are completely cel shaded while others use it only in certain scenes. - Mizi 19:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

A Scanner Darkly Reference
It's unnecessary to include a request for a citation in adding the movie "A Scanner Darkly" to the list of works utilizing cel-shading animation because the wikipedia article on the movie states that the film was done with cel-shading in the first paragraph. fyi Andrewcarreiro 02:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, the movie should be on the list, I'll add it, mmkay? 59.154.26.124 03:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

A scanner darkly is not a 3d animated movie there for cannot be cel-shaded, if you don't believe me watch the making of on the dvd. So i deleted it. Woof69 14:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Spidey animated.jpg
Image:Spidey animated.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Twilight Princess
Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess was not cel-shaded. 204.69.40.7 19:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The way decribed in the article is suboptimal
"The vertices must be drawn multiple times with a slight change in translation to make the lines "thick"." Actually, you would simply contruct a slightly thicker version of the object, the most significant part of which would be translating all vertices in the direction of their normal. This prevents having to draw it multiple times. Shinobu (talk) 20:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Okamiscreen1.jpg
Image:Okamiscreen1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 15:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

History needs to be revamped severely
Cel-Shading was used in movies before video games (The Iron Giant). The history section is written to make it seem like it started in video games. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtd00123 (talk • contribs) 21:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

What does cel mean? Ethymology, please
Sigmundur (talk) 01:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * nvm, adding... --Sigmundur (talk) 01:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)