Talk:Celestial kingdom

Reference to Swedenborg
I'd feel a lot more comfortable with the notion that Joseph Smith was familiar with Swedenborg's writings if a reference were available. Can anyone provide that? Bill 23:38, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * Good point, I should have caught this earlier - the author is quoting from Michael Quinn's work about Smith - according to Hamblin, Peterson, Mitton, Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, p.40 Quinn "noted that the idea of that the idea of three heavens, or degrees of glory, was available in Emmanuel Swedenborg’s cosmic system, in which three heavens—topped by a ‘celestial kingdom’—were associated with the sun, the moon, and the stars” (p. 205)." However, he does not cite that Smith had a copy of the work, rather that it would have likely been available in the Kirtland area at the time of the Vision.


 * In my opinion, I believe that Rigdon would have been exposed to the book (possible before but most likely a little after the vision) but I'd doubt that Smith would have had time to read it during this period even if he had access to it. His journal entries of this time are fairly detailed and includes classes, etc., but this is pre-"seek the best books" when he really started to study other notable works. He was too involved in the Bible translation, and anything he would have read at this time would have been ancilliary. It is interesting that most developments of this nature (evidences of Smith's vision, Book of Mormon Geography, etc.) were printed in Church periodicals of the time, however, this one is auspiciously missing until the Salt Lake period. I would disagree with Quinn's research based on these assumptions, however, I am unaware of any contemporay document of the time that would support that - perhaps a later recollection, but not a contemporary journal entry. Quinn may have produced one, but I am unaware where he did this. If I've read it, it has escaped my memory.


 * That said, perhaps COGDEN could explain when he gets a minute. In the mean time, let's edit accordingly. -Visorstuff 00:37, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I've reviewed a copy of Heaven and Hell and the term "heavenly kingdom" is used in place of "celestial kingdom." This is possibly a translation issue, which I will try to resolve. As noted in the article proper, the original was written in Latin. According to the edition published by the Swedenborg Foundation in 2000, the first English translation was by William Cookworthy and Thomas Hartley, published in 1778. The next was by John Clowes in 1817, which was the basis for a 1839 translation by Samuel Noble. This last was considered the standard in England until 1899 when a translation by J. R. Rendell was published. The first translation published in the United States was by Benjamin Barrett in 1867, which stood until the 1900 translation by John Ager. In England the Rendell version was standard until Doris Harley's version, which was based on Ager's translation. In 1976 George F. Dole translated the work, which was reprinted in 2000 by the Swedenborg Foundation.


 * Based on the date of D&C 76 in 1832, the only English translations that would have been available are the Cookworthy/Harley and Clowes. I'm going to see if I can find these editions to see whether the term "celestial kingdom" was used.


 * Lastly, do we want to propose that Joseph Smith knew Latin in 1832? billlund 15:50, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

No way - not in 1832. I don't think that Latin was ever as strong for him as German, Hebrew or Greek. Latin was a secondary biblical language. I do believe he was educated in Latin, but it was not a strength for him - especially at this period (he had average use of latin, which was common of the time period). By 1834, I may agree with the statement. Rather, I would say, Smith had knowledge of many Latin words and phrases, and had a good foundation of Latin grammar structure and roots by 1832. I love the way you are getting into this claim - it is so easy for people to read quinn and see some of the evidence and draw conclusions. You may, however, want to look outside of that particular work into others by Swedenborg of the time that were available in teh US. Just becuse they are published outside of the US does not mean they were not available in the US- see the comment above about Bernhisel buying copies. Keep up the good research. I'd love to hear what you find out -Visorstuff 21:43, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I came across this on a random web page "Quinn also writes that "Nine miles from Smith's farm, in 1826 the Canandaigua newspaper also advertised Swedenborg's book for sale. The bookstore offered Swedenborg's publications for as little as 37 cents." I don't have a copy of Quinn's book - anybody have that can check it out?  If Quinn's evidence is convincing on this point, I think we can safely say that it was available.  The web page also states: "By Joseph Smith's own statements, he was familiar with Swedenborg's writtings. Smith told a convert by the name of Edward Hunter that "Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished." In other words, Smith liked Swedenborg's concepts of the afterlife, but criticized him for not profiting from them."  But it is unclear if this was stated in Quinn's book or from some other source.  Has anybody heard this before?  Here is the link - admittedly a biased source, but if someone can look it up in Quinn's book, then I think it merits inclusion.  Descartes1979 02:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is a link to the online version of Heaven and Hell where the Celestial Kingdom is mentioned. I am not going to include it though, until the issue of whether it was available in English is resolved. The online version doesn't give many hints as to the earliest English version - I will keep digging. Descartes1979 02:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Exaltation as a reference
Moved the target of exaltation from theosis to exaltation (Mormonism), since it has its own page now. Morgaledth 20:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Broken link
The following link under External Links is broken. I looked at the site to see if I could find where it should point, but I didn't find anything. If someone would like to put it back with a link that works, that would work.
 * Words used in Swedenborg (A-D) --billlund 18:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
I feel that I must object to the mormon church members violating the NPOV of the page. I have attempted on several occasions to add facts to this subject. They have all been removed by members of the LDS church. The fact that the information on the subject only address an LDS point of view proves simply that it is in clear voilation of the NPOV. Emanuel Swedenborg and his book entitled Heaven and Hell show that there is another demonstration of this concept beyond the mormon church's position. The similiarities are too striking to be a mere coincidences. This position is not mentioned on the Telestrial and Terrestrial Kingdom pages. Now I understand that mormons are not allowed to read Mr. Swedenborg's book as it has been sanctioned by them as anti-mormon literature. The consequences of reading this book for them included denial of temple privledges, disfellowshiping, and excommunication which is why non-LDS input is necessary. Allow the posting of non-LDS information to this page and I would support it. Thewayandthelight 21:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Could you please provide a reference for your statement above regarding reading Swedenborg's book? I have read the Qur'an, Tao Te Ching, and many other sacred writings, but I have never been asked or counseled by anyone in the LDS church not to read any of these writings. Do you have anything to support your statement? I eagerly look forward to your response. --Storm Rider (talk) 23:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Active discussions on the neutrality of this article is taking place on the Talk:Telestial kingdom page. Val42 21:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sethie has reviewed this article and cannot find any bias or non-neutrality in it. Sethie 04:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)