Talk:Celle massacre

(Moved from Talk:Celle)RandomCritic 18:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Changes of 17 February 2007
I suppose you can be a victim, even if you are not dead:"a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action." The link to Neuengamme is justified as Drütte was a satellite concentration camp of Neuengamme http://www.gedenkstaette-salzgitter.de/english/index.htm unfortunately there is no Wiki entry on the horrors of Drütte. No pilot of the Allied Air forces could have known that there were human beings in the trains. From the outside they looked like armaments trains. The NAZIs did do this presumably to use the internees as human shields (there is no quote on this and one probably has to delve deeply into the archieves of the Imperial war Museum or the Library of Congress.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.202.26.202 (User:Merleauponty) 18:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the following paragraph for the reasons listed further below:"On April 8, 1945, a train carrying victims from the concentration camp Drütte was accidentally hit by bombs resulting in hundreds of deaths. Many surviving victims managed to escape into the surrounding woods. However, SS men and local citizens set after them and killed hundreds more in what became known as the Hasenjagd ('hare hunt'). The 500 survivors were forcibly marched to the nearby concentration camp Bergen-Belsen leading to even more death because of the victims' exhaustion. On April 12th the town was liberated by the British Army. Its govenor, Mayor Hudson had the town's mayor arrested for this incident"


 * The people on the transport are more appropriately termed prisoners, as at this point they were not yet dead (which victims implies) nor were they victims of the camp (to be precise: at the point they became victims, they were ones of the Hasenjagd), so referring to them as concentration camp victims is more appropriate for a journalistic piece or essay than an encyclopedic article.
 * The article on Neuengamme does not mention Drütte anywhere, so the reference is confusing without further qualification (or a description of Drütte).
 * "Many surviving victims" seems to mean "survivors of the bombing of the train," but as it stands, the sentence is ambiguous as well as emotively worded.
 * No source is given for the cited number of survivors (of the Hasenjagd?), the origin of the the transport (Drütte), the forced march to Bergen-Belsen, the date of liberation of Celle by the British, and the arrest of the mayor.
 * Further, who is the gove[r]nor referred to as Mayor Hudson (is Mayor a mistake for Major?), and what was he governor of? Can Hudson's first name be found somewhere?

Please note that I am not implying that the material I reverted is incorrect; I am saying it is unsourced and that I believe that it was hastily written. I suggest rewriting it as follows, but with a source or sources, particularly for the parts rendered in red:"During an air raid on Celle's rail infrastructure on April 8, 1945, a train carrying prisoners from the Drütte subcamp of the Neuengamme concentration camp was hit by bombs, resulting in hundreds of deaths. Many survivors managed to flee into the surrounding woods, but SS men and local citizens set after them and killed thousands more in what became known as the Hasenjagd ('bunny chase'), which ended on April 10. Of the 500 escapees caught, many died of exhaustion while being  marched  to the nearby  Bergen-Belsen  concentration camp. On April 12 Celle was surrendered to the  British Army, and the British military governor of the area, Major [name] Hudson, had the town's mayor arrested for the incident."Of the above, material in red needs to be verifiably sourced; that in black is already sourced to the German Wikipedia article on Celle.

One last word: I believe Hasenjagd is better rendered bunny chase in English because I think bunny chase more accurately reflects the cynical nuance of the German expression that the more-literal rabbit or hare chase. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 15:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The bombing was not "accidental". An accidental bombing is when a bombing is not intended. The trains were being targeted, the attack was no accident. Whether or not the attackers knew or suspected that there were detainees on the train is another matter.Royalcourtier (talk) 07:43, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Reasons for citation/grammar & style tags following edits of 24 Sept 07
I added the and  tags today because I feel that changes made by editor 80.202.26.33 on September 23–24 seriously impair the objectivity and integrity of the article. I would therefor like to ask that a third-party editor verify the facts as stated against their presentation in the sources as well as correct the grammatical and semantic errors 80.202.26.33 has introduced into the article. I believe that I am too personally invested in the article content to do this work myself objectively; I also believe, on the basis of 80.202.26.33’s comments (embedded in the text), that 80.202.26.33 would not accept my changes or reversions and therefore intend to refrain from editing the article until I believe these issues can be resolved. Sincerely, Jim_Lockhart 10:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Title
Or maybe even "Celle Bunny Hunt" if it is meant to be cynical in tone. Either way, a tragic story. --Bermicourt (talk) 16:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Major Hudson
British military governor of the area Major Charles Arthur Norman Hudson (1900–1970) as cited in: Reiner Voss: ''Auf dem Weg zur Demokratie – Neubeginn des politischen Lebens im Landkreis Celle nach dem 2. Weltkrieg, Quellen und Darstellungen zur Geschichte des Landkreises Celle'', Heft 1, Celle 1997, p. 20 f. ISBN 3-9805636-0-X Matthias Blazek (talk) 12:17, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Trial?
There is a passing reference to a trial, but no mention of who was tried, or by whom.Royalcourtier (talk) 07:40, 31 May 2017 (UTC)