Talk:Central Arkansas Christian Schools

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090209155137/http://www.cacmustangs.org:80/prospective/prospective_about.asp?sub=def to http://www.cacmustangs.org/prospective/prospective_about.asp?sub=def
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110605043305/http://www.case.org/membership/district4.cfm?CONTAINERID=95&CRUMB=3&NAVID=56 to http://www.case.org/membership/district4.cfm?CONTAINERID=95&CRUMB=3&NAVID=56
 * Added tag to http://www.ahsaa.org/schools?id=339&school=
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110718214737/http://www.ahsaa.org/docs/2008-09RECBOOK.pdf to http://www.ahsaa.org/docs/2008-09RECBOOK.pdf
 * Added tag to http://www.nlrtimes.com/articles/2006/05/17/maumelle_monitor/sports/sports/01cacsoftball.txt
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081021115744/http://www.arkwrestling.com:80/board.php to http://www.arkwrestling.com/board.php
 * Added tag to http://www.cacmustangs.org/press_room/archives/053006.pdf
 * Added tag to http://www.christianchronicle.org/article2158378~Singing_about_an_%91Upside_

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 06:14, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Declarative American English
Collective nouns are singular in American English.

Simple declarative sentences work best in an encyclopedia, particularly where the founding of the institution is concerned. Rhadow (talk) 12:29, 25 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Your rite; of coarse! Mary Christmas!Jacona (talk) 13:52, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Jacona -- Humer has no place in an eclikopeadia a book. Waiting for others to arise and see what Santa brung. Rhadow (talk) 13:58, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Deletion of Incorrect Information from This Page
I tried removing incorrect information from the Wikipedia page for Central Arkansas Christian Schools. However, my edits were reversed. I have contacted the editor who suggested I take this action. Therefore, I would like to request a permanent deletion of invalid information be made from this page.

This Wikipedia article identifies Central Arkansas Christian Schools as a segregation academy. The source cited for this label is a NY Times article on Central High School (note - a completely different school) titled "Troubled Arkansas School Becomes Best in State" by Rone Tempest. The NY Times article states that Central Arkansas Christian School and Pulaski Academy were both established the same year as federally mandated busing was imposed in Arkansas. The author of this Wikipedia article is making a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument that the school was founded as a result of the federal mandate; nevertheless, the label of segregation academy is not proved by this article, nor does the article even attempt to do so.

Additionally, the article states that, "By the 1980s, the school [Central Arkansas Christian School], which opened as part of the reaction to the integration of Little Rock Central High School, was, according to the Los Angeles Times, generally regarded as academically inferior to its desegregated public school counterpart.[5]" No where in the NY Times article does it state that Central Arkansas Christian School was seen as academically inferior. Additionally, the quote references that Central Arkansas Christian School was opened as part of a reaction to the integration of Little Rock Central High. If you will notice, the integration of Little Rock Central High School occurred in 1957, yet Central Arkansas Christian School did not open until 1972 - making it highly unlikely that the opening of Central Arkansas Christian School had anything to do with the Central High Crisis of 1957.

When my edits were reversed, I was told that Wikipedia is not censored. This change is not about censorship; it is about credibility and accuracy. As a college level English instructor, I encourage students when using Wikipedia to check out the citations. In fact, that is how this misinformation came to my attention. One thing I mention repeatedly is that just because there is a citation does not mean that citation is being used correctly. That appears to be the case here, and I hope this misinformation will be changed.

I have pdf copies of the source in question, "Troubled Arkansas School Becomes Best in State." Due to the copyright notice, I will not post them here. However, if I can provide them to you in some way so that you can verify the misuse of this source, please let me know how I can provide them.

Thanks for your attention.

CkbeckASUB (talk) 21:44, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Others will weigh in on this I'm sure. I'm the coordinator for the school project on Wikipedia and watch the seg academy articles closely as they are subject to frequent attempts at whitewashing as I'm sure you can understand. If your quoting from the source is complete and accurate (without cherry picking it to make your point), then yes, we probably will need to change the article. I would oppose removing the NYT source completely, but rather quoting it verbatim., could you kindly provide the bibliographic info on the other source you mentioned? If it meets our standards for reliability, I can probably figure out a non copyright violating way to share it so it can be discussed. Let's see who else shows up here. I'm looking forward to being able to debate this subject sans the vitriol that is usually involved, as the editors I've encountered on this subject in the past have been primarily of the PR professional type. That generally does not go well. John from Idegon (talk) 22:35, 14 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks! All of the references in question come from the same article: Tempest, Rone (February 28, 1982). "Troubled Arkansas school becomes best in state". Los Angeles Time. p. 1 – via Newspapers.com. That article cannot be accessed by the general population using the hyperlink provided as it requires a monthly subscription. I tried to locate the article using the databases at the two universities where I teach with no luck, so I went ahead and created an account to access the original article. Again, just let me know what I need to do so that others can access it. I look forward to you seeing the article and getting your perspective on it. CkbeckASUB (talk) 23:19, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The Wikimedia Foundation is kind enough to supply newspapers.com accounts to registered users who request it. Please provide the hyperlink for it. That's not against copyright laws and then those who do have access it can see it. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 23:56, 14 May 2019 (UTC)


 * https://www.newspapers.com/image/389041152/ The article begins on page one and carries over to pages 16, 17, & 18. The only specific reference to Central Arkansas Christian School is on page 18. CkbeckASUB (talk) 00:11, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually that reference was on the article at one time, and it appears the other extant source, which you didn't mention, verifies the content completely. I'm going to ping . As the original editor who added this content, he should probably be heard. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 00:22, 15 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I am unsure to what reference you are referring. Can you be more specific? I would also add that the article indicates Central Arkansas Christian Schools began in 1972. However, the location that opened in 1972 was a second campus. According to the school website, the first campus opened in 1971 with planning for that location beginning in 1970. CkbeckASUB (talk) 00:34, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The reference to the "Encyclopedia of Arkansas", which is located in the same place as the NYT reference. Using the reference number is poor practice when discussing content, as changes in content can alter the numbering scheme. Cannot say for certain on the date issue, but that should be a separate topic. A bit of background. Only high schools are considered WP:NOTABLE - lower schools (and small private school systems for that matter) are generally not notable (ie "article-worthy"). This article should be converted into an article about the high school. The date confusion may come from that, which is also a separate topic. I'll shut up now. Let's here from others. John from Idegon (talk) 00:46, 15 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, I realized after my question that you were talking about the entry into the Encylopedia of Arkansas that lists Central Arkansas Christian Schools as one of several schools that opened up during a specific time period. Again, that is simply a post hoc argument. Unless something can be shown that a certain school did not allow minorities to enroll, it is not an unbiased argument. And yes, I will shut up now as well. CkbeckASUB (talk) 00:57, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Professor, certainly you realize that all an encyclopedia does is report on what others have written. So in short, no, we don't need to show the school refused to enroll minorities. You may have an arguement for not stating that in Wikipedia's voice, but unless you are disputing the reliability of the source, the fact that the source says it is a seg academy is enough for us to say that. If you'd choose to dispute the source's reliability, it's your burden to prove it. John from Idegon (talk) 03:25, 15 May 2019 (UTC)


 * My apologies for being unclear. I did not mean to insinuate that Wikipedia should provide that information. My point was that just because a school is founded during a certain period does not make it a segregation academy. The foundation date is not solid proof that a school was or was not a segregation academy. As a professor, I would encourage students not reach a conclusion such as he did. I did find it interesting that the same author responsible for the Encyclopedia of Arkansas entry actually posted the following on another site: "The third private school established in 1971 was Central Arkansas Christian School, located at the Sylvan Hills Church of Christ, again after the PCSSD intend to implement additional busing that affected the Sylvan Hills and Sherwood areas. The founders of the school repeatedly stated that admission was open to all regardless of race. Enrollment was 145 in its first year. From 1974 to 1979, the school did enroll from two to five blacks each year." https://ualrexhibits.org/desegregation/political-action-and-reaction/private-schools/. Thoughts?  CkbeckASUB (talk) 03:37, 15 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I’m just curious how long it typically takes for others to comment. When my students identified this as an inaccurate and/or biased article as part of our Wikipedia credibility study, I didn’t realize it would be so problematic. It was definitely not the best choice for a two week intercession term! Nevertheless, I am especially looking forward to the original editor’s explanation of the reference to the school being considered inferior and to the statement that the school, which was opened in 1971 as a reaction to the Central High integration in 1957. I do have a couple of students’ comments/question to pass along. One is in reference to a previous comment “the fact that the source says it is a seg academy is enough for us to say that.” However, the source does not specifically identify the school as a segregation academy. It merely notes that the school was opened the same time as numerous other private schools. Next is the rather simple question of what would it take to get the label removed. Additionally, they want it pointed out that the issue is not one of credibility of the sources but with the way the Wikipedia article is using information incorrectly. Finally, they are anxious to get a reply to the quote from the University of Arkansas at Little Rock site where the author of the Encyclopedia of Arkansas wrote "The third private school established in 1971 was Central Arkansas Christian School, located at the Sylvan Hills Church of Christ, again after the PCSSD intend to implement additional busing that affected the Sylvan Hills and Sherwood areas. The founders of the school repeatedly stated that admission was open to all regardless of race. Enrollment was 145 in its first year. From 1974 to 1979, the school did enroll from two to five blacks each year." Thanks again! CkbeckASUB (talk) 04:11, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * If you're working on a school project, you may want to add it here. As far as how long, there are no specific rules. Many times things are resolved in an hour, but sometimes it may take a month...the editor who added this is usually responsive, but appears to have been away from the project recently. I do see your reasoning, based on what I've looked up, but then again, "We are not a segregation academy", says every segregation academy ever, including ones who bragged about being one back in the day. Also, I'm curious, as you're doing this school project...didn't you used to edit under a different user name? Your editing style looks very familiar.Jacona (talk) 17:28, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Jacona, thanks for your response and the information. No, I have never edited anything before. I think I registered once years ago, but registering is all I did. I just came across the Wikiversity project right after the first of the year. Since Wikipedia is such a part of students' lives, I was trying to figure out how to incorporate it into research. Unfortunately, I came across the project too late in the semester for my students to take the 12 week assignment, so I created an abbreviated Wikipedia credibility project that just dealt with looking at articles and the sources used to assess the credibility of those sources, but no editing was involved. Even that was too much for this 2 week course, which is how we ended up just picking one article to research and attempt to edit. Sorry! That was probably too much to simply answer your question! Again, no, this is my first editing attempt. Again, thanks so much! CkbeckASUB (talk) 21:37, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I've looked back at the LA times article. It does not explicitly compare CAC to LRCHS, but it does note that LRCHS is the "best in [the] state". The article also states that "when bussing was instituted" private academies like CAC "popped up like mushrooms". I think that the wording could be more precise, but that the cited content should remain. I'll also observe that I feel that this is a case where WP:Verifiability, not truth applies. — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 04:48, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Greetings, Bill! So, can you agree that the statement "By the 1980s, the school [Central Arkansas Christian School], which opened as part of the reaction to the integration of Little Rock Central High School, was, according to the Los Angeles Times, generally regarded as academically inferior to its desegregated public school counterpart[5]" should be removed? There is a difference in LRCHS being considered the best in the state and considering another school "academically inferior." My students are working on a revision they would like to present that includes a tweaked version of the information from the Encyclopedia of Arkansas but also includes some additional information like the quote above which references that the school began enrolling blacks in 1974. I believe their version acknowledges that segregation academies appeared, that the school opened during that period, but shows where there are indicators that this particular school may have been an exception, not the rule. May I post that here for review once it is finished?
 * Of couurse you can!Jacona (talk) 16:23, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It was never my intention to interject much here. I just wanted to get the right people here to discuss and help our new friend understand Wikipedia culture a bit. That's happening so basically I'm out. I'll leave with a note to say I'm very glad that there is a Wiki-ed project in the works that will actually address actual Wikipedia issues. Thank you. John from Idegon (talk) 22:15, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, John! Students have really enjoyed the project. They have learned a lot. I have my Wikiversity project ready to go this fall, and I am excited about that as well. I am pasting below what they have written. I have strictly copied and pasted and have not worried about formatting here.

''Central Arkansas Christian Schools (CAC) is a group of three private schools based in North Little Rock, Arkansas, USA. CAC was established in 1971 at Sylvan Hills Church of Christ.1 Because of its foundation date, the school has been categorized as a segregation academy. The Central Arkansas School system includes a combination middle and high school campus in North Little Rock and two elementary schools: a campus in Pleasant Valley/Little Rock and a campus in North Little Rock. .[1] Together, they composed the state's fourth-largest combined private school for the 2018-19 school year.[2] The schools are “affiliated with (but not operated or owned by) by the Churches of Christ 3.

History Central Arkansas Christian School opened in 1971. Because of the timing of the school’s establishment, it has been categorized as a segregation academy, a term associated with private schools established in response to the court ordered racial integration of public schools.[4][5] Although categorized as a segregation academy, the “founders of the school repeatedly stated that admission was open to all regardless of race.” Additionally, black students were enrolled in the school as early as 1974.3, 4

1https://www.cacmustangs.org/about/history-and-mission/ Retrieved May 21, 2018 2https://www.privateschoolreview.com/school-size-stats/arkansas Retrieved May 21, 2018 3Stewart, Jeffrey. “Central Arkansas Christian School: A Study of the Relationship between Public School Desegregation and Private Schools” Pulaski County Historical Review. (Spring, 2014). 4”The Private School Movement in Pulaski County: 1969-1972” https://ualrexhibits.org/desegregation/political-action-and-reaction/private-schools/ Retrieved May 18, 2019.''

Today is the last day of intersession, so anything from here will fall on me. However, I have promised students I would keep on working on this.

CkbeckASUB (talk) 16:40, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Per the discussion and proposed changes that I posted back in May, I have (finally) updated the article with those changes. I've been busy having students working on other edits and just now getting back to this one! CkbeckASUB (talk) 20:08, 5 November 2019 (UTC)