Talk:Central and Eastern Europe

Merge from Germany ( Eastern part ) suggestion
Germany ( Eastern part ) Still in it ? I doubt it

Merge from Median Europe suggestion

 * Support. `'Míkka>t 00:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Against - 1) CEE is not a correct term, although it's widely used, 2) it often includes Russia (Median Europe does not), 3) this article doesn't have any single source Montessquieu (talk) 07:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Central Europe includes Germany and Austria, Eastern Europe includes Russia. Does this term have any sense? I would ask to provide any sources which define the term (explaining why Russia, Germany and Austria are not included). This term is very widely used, various organisations are established (even programmes of study), but when I was trying to find its scientific definition, it was impossible. I wish you good luck with English-language sources. On the contrary, scientific analysis of Middle Europe does exist and is provided in the article. Montessquieu (talk) 09:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Article merged to East-Central Europe. Montessquieu (talk) 21:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Per Mikka's idea below, we can have sections discussing various similar terms and their usage.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion of another article
All these "median-like" terms are not well-established. What we need is an article which lists and compares various attempts to define new geopolitical zone (or zones) in Europe, with proper references to sources which explain and justify the corresponding terms, not just use them. I suggest the article title Geopolitical divisions of Europe, which will give only summaries of relatively well-established terms like Central Europe, but go in detail for various neologisms. `'Míkka>t 17:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea, although I would insist that an article on Central Europe remain autonomous. Montessquieu (talk) 17:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Like I said, Central Europe and other well-known in separate pages is OK, you probably are not familiar  with Summary style, so you didn't understand my suggestion in full. `'Míkka>t 21:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't understand but now I do :) I strongly support. Montessquieu (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * OK. I started the article Geopolitical divisions of Europe, from the most obvious piece. Please expand. `'Míkka>t 23:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not a geography article
Friends, please do not treat "Central and Eastern Europe" as a geography article combining "Central Europe" and "Eastern Europe". The article clearly states in the first sentence that "Central and Eastern Europe" is a political-economic term characterizing basically the former Communist (or Socialist) countries in Europe. Initially, CEE (accepted abbreviation) applied to former Socialist countries in Europe lying west of the post-WWII border with the former USSR. Eventually, the term was broadened to include the three Baltic states, which chose not to join the CIS and thus by default shifted to CEE. All transition countries in Europe and Central Asia today are classified either as CIS (12 former Soviet republics excluding the Baltic states) or CEE (the exact count varies depending on the number of entities in former Yugoslavia, but it always includes the new EU members as well as all the accession candidates). The Wikipedia article East-Central Europe is conceptually very close to CEE, although the map in this article does not include the Baltic states. However, the accepted usage in transition and development studies today is definitely CEE, because the abbreviation ECE for "East-Central Europe" is ambiguous: it normally stands for the Economic Council of Europe. Based on these considerations, I will make an attempt to edit Central and Eastern Europe, but at this stage my version will be far from definitive, so the stub template remains (but not a geography stub!). Let's continue this discussion, shall we? --Zlerman (talk) 07:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Several minutes of internet search gave me a list of sources that include Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova and Russia in CEE:

http://itonews.eu/en/central-eastern-europe-it-outsourcing-review/2007/central-eastern-europe-it-outsourcing-review-2007/index.html http://blogcampcee.com/about/cee http://www.cee-spi.com/ http://www.ceemarket.com/ http://internetcee.com/program http://www.hope4cee.org/about/countries.html http://globalvoicesonline.org/-/world/eastern-central-europe/ http://www.ssees.ucl.ac.uk/general.htm I'm not sure which definition (including or excluding four post-USSR countries) is more spread. But anyway both definitions should be present in the Wikipedia article -- 2008 Nov 2, Oleksandr Demchenko
 * Nobody is trying to deprive these four countries of their East European status: see Eastern Europe. The problem is that CEE as defined in the established literature includes a set of countries that are distinct from the 12 CIS countries. This is how CEE is described in the article Central and Eastern Europe and I do not think that this should be changed. Incidentally note that a very respectable source you cite is entitled "General resources on Central and Eastern Europe and Russia", which means that Russia is NOT Central and Eastern Europe according to UCL Library Services... --Zlerman (talk) 06:28, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Dear Zlerman, I haven't claimed that you do consider these states not being Eastern European. According to practice of usage in some cases (and maybe in most) CEE includes four post-USSR Eastern European nations. Using Google search with phrases "Central and Eastern Europe", "Central and Eastern Europe definition" I found something like 50/50 ratio of sources that include or do not include four Eastern European states in CEE. If such usage exists and is popular enough, it has right to be mentioned in Wikipedia, even if considered by someone as not correct. --Oleksandr Demchenko, 2 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.91.178.162 (talk)
 * Please search for CEE Europe (these two words) in Google Scholar to get a sense of the accepted academic usage for the term CEE and the right context for this term. You may then search for CEE Europe in Google and compare the relevant results. I repeat what the article and the discussion above say: although CEE is an abbreviation of "Central Eastern Europe", it has an established terminological meaning of its own in the post-Soviet political-economic context and should not be used loosely. --Zlerman (talk) 02:00, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * May be it should not used "loosely", but it is used in such way! So I would like to propose to give several definitions: one according to academic usage and another one met in popular / business / NGO usage --Oleksandr Demnchenko, 6 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.91.178.162 (talk)


 * Please propose the appropriate wording here on the Talk page, including all the references that support your statements, and we will then be able to discuss this in concrete terms. And make sure to SIGN your messages by pressing the signature icon! SineBot is working overtime for you... --Zlerman (talk) 16:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

East-Central Europe
Why are East-Central Europe and this article separate? They deal with the same topic, why not merge?- J.Logan`t : 14:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * These two articles do not deal with the same topic. East-Central Europe has nothing in common with the Communism and includes, for example, Greece. It's a geopolitical region. CEE is a term, I wouldn't call it a region. I know that according to a fragment in this article both terms are synonyms, but it's not referenced and I wouldn't agree with this opinion (in general, terms like Central Europe, Eastern Europe, East-Central Europe, Central and Eastern Europe are very often mixed and used in inappropriate way). Montessquieu (talk) 15:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yet they nearly entirely overlap. Surely the exact terms could be outlined for both within one article? The usage of one term could be highlighted just as well without it being separated from another referring to what is nearly the same area, splitting it without cross reference would surely add to confusion when you come across one and not the other or they are linked incorrectly without knowledge of the differences- J.Logan`t : 15:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Article should be renamed (moved)
The topic of this article are the various military and political controversies regarding this part of Europe during and after World War II. The topic is not "Central and Eastern Europe", which sounds more like the title of a Baedecker's travel guide -- it needs to be changed to a more pertinent title. Moreover, the introduction to the article does not discuss what the article is about -- this needs to be corrected. Strongly suggest the contributors to article review Manual of Style. Suggested names for the article could be: These are unwieldy titles, which point to a further problem -- the scope of this article is very broad -- most of these issues deserve their own article, and if such articles already exist, then the encyclopedic value of rolling up all of these issues into a single article is questionable. Cheers, W. B. Wilson (talk) 09:12, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Central and eastern European controversies of the Second World War
 * Central and eastern European views of Second World War history

Dr. Holzner's comment on this article
Dr. Holzner has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:

"No further information apart from the region's definition"

We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

We believe Dr. Holzner has expertise on the topic of this article, since he has published relevant scholarly research:


 * Reference : Vasily Astrov & Vladimir Gligorov & Peter Havlik & Mario Holzner & Gabor Hunya & Sebastian Leitner & Zdenek Lukas & Anton Mihailov & Olga Pindyuk & Leon Podkaminer & Josef Poschl & Sandor Richter & He, 2011. "Recovery - in Low Gear across Tough Terrain," wiiw Forecast Reports 7, The Vienna Institute for International Economic Studies, wiiw.

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Removal of map
The map of supposed division of Europe has been removed as it is not cited or sourced to anything reliable there is a wooly claim of 'historical sub-divisions' but without attribution. This is a bad map and should not be included as it implants modern boundaries on what is being claimed to be historical information, and worse still has not citing of any sources or claims of verifiability for the information contained within the map. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 06:21, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Somewhat confused here, the caption clearly cites EuroVoc. Are you contesting this as a false citation? CMD (talk) 09:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The classification comes directly from EuroVoc; an authoritative source maintained by the Publications Office of the European Union. Please read more carefully before removing content. Archives908 (talk) 18:29, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think this is just another Eastern European angry because their country was included in any category with the adjective "Eastern" in it (as an Eastern European myself, I come across them all the time...). They are likely to return, possibly under sock puppets and other IP addresses, just to keep pushing their agenda and removing content that doesn't align with their views. --Pitsarotta (talk) 15:17, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Please withdraw these comments above as these may be seen as racist by casting aspersions on the motives of a person posting based on their ethnicity. You may be or may not be Eastern European yourself, I have no way of knowing beyond what you have claimed, but the above comments are not welcome as they assume bad faith based on a persons ethnicity. You also assume additional bad faith through claims of "They are likely to return, possibly under sock puppets and other IP addresses, just to keep pushing their agenda and removing content that doesn't align with their views". If you do not withdraw the above comments I will be required to report the above as it is incredibly offensive and in my opinion racist. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 15:23, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * There is no way to "withdraw" something online, especially on a website like Wikipedia where you can see everything clearly in page history. I'm sorry if you feel offended, but some of us actually have to deal with real racism on an everyday basis. When was the last time someone threatened to beat you up because you spoke your native tongue in public? This happened to me just a few weeks ago, it's the reality for some Eastern European migrants in the West. But all of this is a digression, we are not here to talk about our experiences of racism.
 * I do sincerely apologise if you are not, in fact, here to start more edit wars or use sock puppets. This and many other pages I've come across have been repeatedly vandalised by Eastern Europeans (Poles, Serbs, Ukrainians - you name it) with nationalist agendas. This is why we are jumpy when we see contributions and demands that fit the same pattern. I hope I am mistaken and you will not become another such user. All the best. --Pitsarotta (talk) 22:40, 12 January 2024 (UTC)