Talk:Chadstone Shopping Centre

Note
It's also interesting to note that within one block of Chadstone is every Coles Myer owned brand except for Liquorland/VC and Target Country. Coles, Bilo, Kmart, Kmart Tyre & Auto, Myer and Target are in the shopping centre itself. Officeworks, Megamart and KMart Garden Center are located at the corner of Warrigal and Waverly Roads. Coles Express is located at the corner of Princess Hwy and Warrigal Roads.

-You are right. Clearly no accident. Interestingly, Woolworths has been kept out of the region almost completely. The Shopping Centre has no Safeway, Big W or Dick Smiths (although there is in fact a Tandy). And now there is a Caltex/Safeway Petrol on the corner of Waverley and Warrigal Roads in Chadstone. Revenge 14:19, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

- Furthermore, apart from one boutiquey type liquer shop there is no alcohol retailer. One cannot buy a slab of VB in Chadstone.

- Clearly the opening of Woolworths, Aldi & First Choice last year has dented this argument somewhat... It is worthwhile remember that Myer started Chadstone single-handedly and the centre has grown since then... Xbopper (talk) 04:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

History
I lived in Chadstone (the suburb) in the late 60s/early 70s, and my family shopped at Chadstone shopping centre in its original structure. There was originally a supermarket (New World, which I believe was owned by Coles) at the northern end, which wasn't redeveloped as the existing Target store until the 80s, although I'm not sure if that was before or after the Gandel Group bought the complex.

Unfortunately I can't find any citations for this on Google. I live in London now, but there might be something available in newspaper archives in Melbourne libraries, and there is also a section on the building of the shopping centre in The Gay Provider a history of the Myer Emporium written by Alan Marshall (1961), which my mother, a former Myer employee, owns. redcountess 20:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The section on the early years said that the first major change occurred in the 1970s or 1980s with the fibreglass roof over the mall. However, this was present in the 1970s, as I remember it being there when visiting Chadstone numerous times as a kid with my mother in the mid to late 1970's. I remember it was there in 1976. Liron 1/1/2919 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lironl (talk • contribs) 22:38, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Largest?
According to other articles on Wikipedia, Knox has more space (as at 02/02/2007) for let and both Paramatta and Southland shopping centres have more stores. This being the case, the first line of this article "Chadstone Shopping Centre in Chadstone, Victoria, Australia is the largest shopping centre in the southern hemisphere" needs to be removed or clarified. Dgen 02:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. If you read the article's history section it explains how Chadstone was the largest, then Knox, but with extensions Chadstone will be the largest again.  Is it the largest now, I don't know.  If I can find some facts I'll post them.  Chadstone was a favourite place to be during school holidays when I was growing up.  Roaming27 03:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not the largest mall in the Southern Hemisphere (and hasn't been for some time), it may be the largest in Australia, but there are larger malls in Indonesia Grand Indonesia Mall Taman Anggrek Mal Artha Gading
 * Also in Brazil. See Centro Comercial Aricanduva which is 247,000 m2. Cuddy Wifter (talk) 21:30, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

You will also see with the Centro Comerial Aricanduva website is not correct too. It does not say that the centre features 247,027 m2 as the Wikipedia page says it does. the Wikipedia page also states that the centre features 577 stores, when that reference states: more than 500...That could mean 501 or 529 or even 1000. Until there are up to date sources that clearly state: "Centro Comerial Aricanduva is the largest shopping centre in the Southern Hemisphere", Chadstone remains largest. Also coming from an article that is more than a year old, and still only features 1 reference, that is extremely hard to imagine. I can give you references that clearly state chadstone as the largest in the southern hemisphere: Chadstone's own brochure, and I quote: Welcome to Chadstone- The Fashion Capital, The largest most fashionable shopping centre in the southern hemisphere.
 * - Centre's own website
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 

^^^Dosen't get any more clear than that. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 07:11, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, none of those are particularly reliable. Half are primary sources, and all look like they are just repeating marketing claims. We could probably dig up similar claims for many shopping centres - even Westfield Marion has sources claiming it is the biggest. :) What we need is a reliable comparison that comes to that conclusion. Given that such hasn't been presented yet, what we do know is that that Chadstone has 190,000 m2 retail space and 530 stores, and we know that Centro Comerial Aricanduva has 577 stores and over 200,000 m2 space, so while we don't know what the biggest is, we know that it isn't Chadstone. - Bilby (talk) 09:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, your reference is not reliable, I only see a discussion page. Now we do know that Chadstone is the largest in the Southern Hemisphere, maybe take a look at the centre's own website. It explains there (first link^^) -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 09:13, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You need to click through the "next" buttons until you get to Centro Comerial Aricanduva. :) However, this is the sort of claim for which we can't rely on primary sources - they're good for factual data, but not necessarily comparative claims. Given that we have data about the retail stores and area for each centre, it seems a mistake to rely on incorrect sources to describe one as the biggest. We don't have to use sources when they're wrong. :) I don't think we can claim that Centro Comerial Aricanduva is the biggest without a source, but similarly we don't need to incorrectly say that Chadstone is the largest, either. - Bilby (talk) 09:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So your saying the 20 different sources (Pdfs, Newspaper articles, Centres website, centres brochure) are all incorect?
 * Thats interesting when there is a 'claim we cant rely on' on a website forum, and another website that cant get its facts right... Against 10 reliable references... -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 09:40, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It depends on the size of Centro Comercial Aricanduva. If size we give is correct, then yes - we can judge that those sources are wrong by comparing the figures. At this stage, I think there's good reason for thinking that Aricanduva is larger, so I'm not inclined to add the claim that Chadstone is the largest to the article until we can confirm their respective sizes. - Bilby (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * "The mall has 485 shops, including an open foodcourt with 26 restaurants that has a seating for 1,500 persons. The mall also has 10 cinemas, 3,200 parking stalls, and an auditorium." <- Crontradiction or is this "source" just old and unreliable? -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 09:50, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Good reason? Bilby with all due respect, I am not even reasoning with Centro, currently, because you have provided 3 sources that don't add up. Find more sources, thats all really that can be done. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 10:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think this is getting to be too much you and me, and not enough anyone else. :) If it helps, though: "World's Largest Shopping Centers" from Shopping Center Studies at the Eastern Connecticut State University - gives the 2.6 million ft2 figure for gross floor area; Business Insider; and The life Cycle of Shopping Centres and Possible Revitalisation Strategies, which gives a total area of 342,000 m2 but no retail floor area or shop numbers. I guess my concern is that the "biggest" changes constantly, depending on development that is ongoing in all countries, and there is enough to question Chadstone's claim to the throne, especially considering it is in their interest to claim to be the biggest whether or not they are.
 * At any rate, I'll step back in see what others think. I'm happy to go with consensus, whatever it is. - Bilby (talk) 10:33, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Chadstone is not the Southern Hemisphere's largest shopping centre. (3/5 sources) - None of which state that the Aricanduva Mall is the largest in the Southern Hemisphere.
 * Business Insider - prior 2007-2009 extension of Chadstone.
 * The life Cycle of Shopping Centres and Possible Revitalisation Strategies - prior 2007-2009 extension of Chadstone.
 * World's Largest Shopping Centers - prior 2007-2009 extension of Chadstone.

Chadstone is the Southern Hemisphere's largest shopping centre. (3/20 sources) - All of which clearly state that Chadstone Shopping Centre is the largest shopping centre in the Southern Hemisphere. This is confusing to me, because different sources are saying to us, that the Aricanduva Mall has: Contradiction or facts wrong...who knows? What baffles me, is that there is no, (or so far) any source that clearly states that the Aricanduva Mall is the largest shopping centre in the Southern Hemisphere. The 20 different sources I mentioned above, all state that Chadstone is the largest shopping centre in the Southern Hemisphere, with the sources dating from 2009 right through to 2011. Thank You Bilby & Cuddy Wiftler for showing atleast some resources, other editors most probably would have been blank at adding them. If any other editors would like to discuss anything with me, please feel free to discuss with me on my talk page. I'll also respond to any comments; questions etc. that are left under this topic :) Thank You -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 12:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Chadstoneshopping.com.au/centreinfo - Post Chadstone extension (still being updated)
 * Herald Sun: Chaddy now the biggest - Post Chadstone extension
 * Melbourne Convention and Visitors Bureau: Chadstone Shopping Centre - Post Chadstone extension
 * Floor area: 247,027 m; 425,000 m2; 242,000; 250,838 m²; 342,000 m2; 241,548 m2
 * Stores: 577; 500+; 535; 325
 * Sorry - I had planned to step back. But just to clarify: I never said that Aricanduva was the largest, although I guess that's a possibility. What seems to be the case is that Aricanduva has greater retail floor area and more stores, so it may not be the largest at this point in time, but the sources suggest it is bigger than Chadstone. As an aside, why do you think those sources are prior to the extension? Business Insider is dated December, 2009, the Eastern Connecticut State University source is at least post 2008, and the Life Cycles paper is 2009. - Bilby (talk) 12:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh...Sorry it was 2/3 sources that were prior to the extension. With the stores we cant establish how much there are as mentioned above, same with floor area...sources are saying different to eachother. Dont apologize for adding a comment...This is a discussion, everyone can talk :) -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 13:03, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe that the term largest in the Southern Hemisphere is a piece of pure puffery designed to inflate the importance of an artcile. After all, the Northern Hemisphere contains 90% of the worlds population, so by extension, the term Southern Hemisphere means that sonething (usually in Australia) is the largest in 10% of the the world. What a nonsense. Incidentally, the List of largest shopping malls in the world accepts that Centro Comercial Aricanduva has a Gross Leasable Area of 247,027 m2 and has a reference to the Centre's website. If you accept the Chadstone figure from their website, why do you doubt the Brazilian Centre's GLA? Cuddy Wifter (talk) 05:33, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I believe, I think, I know, I hope, I thought <-all equal as "My opinion". You can say it is pure puffery, But that is your Opinion . I can tell you now, I and I am positvely sure many other's like to know what is the biggest, that is why we have the List of largest shopping malls in the world article. Now the only reason I say that I don't believe its own site, is because it dosent even mention that figure, If it does (sure it dosent) please copy the paragraph and show me. If it does, thats great, also show me where it states that it is largest in the Southern Hemmisphere and also how many stores the centre features. Pretty sure you can check all twenty references I have provided, for Chadstone, they all clearly state the following: stores, size, and title of Southern Hemisphere's largest shopping centre, and correct me If I am wrong, you or other editors are yet to provide sources that state that for the Centro Mall. It is not about how many countries or how much the worlds population the Southern compared to the Northern Hemisphere has, it is about whats big and small. If you don't seem to like that, by all means visit every Southern Hemisphere country tell them they are not allowed to say this and that because it is a piece of pure puffery. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 06:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh and on that note:Incidentally, the List of largest shopping malls in the world accepts that Centro Comercial Aricanduva has a Gross Leasable Area of 247,027 m2 and has a reference to the Centre's website .  The centre, you say, has never even been mentioned in the article. Incentally your fact, is wrong. Oh and unless we get concrete evidence (not a source that says the floor area is this, but then says something else) I dont think that the Centro mall can apply to that list...if so, than I can just add Chadstone in, saying that it is a billion square meatres large, even though there is no reference, what matters? I still havent found a reference that actually supports the Centro mall's floor area. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 08:44, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Opinion?...on a Talkpage...who would have thought....now there's a novelty. Wikipedia is not set in concrete. Anything can be questioned and changed. Why would an article have to state "largest in the southern hemisphere" if the concept is not known in other countries. I do not have a problem with largest in The World, just the article inflating term Southern Hemisphere.
 * To find the Gross Leaseable Area for Centro Comercial Aricanduva go to, click on the tag Números do Shopping where you will see a figure of 247,027 m2 for  Area bruta locavel, the translation of which is Gross Leasable Area. As to the List of largest shopping malls in the world please see No. 14 on the list.
 * My original intention in posting here was to point out that there was another Shopping Centre in the Southern Hemisphere with a greater GLA than Chadstone. I've done that, and wasted more time than I intended on such a minor detail. Cuddy Wifter (talk) 04:15, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Every detail counts. Whether it be Southern Hemisphere or Northern there shouldn't be a problem with a statement that is not fammiliar with the other country, because The centre that has the iformation in other words, belongs to a country in particular. Northern Hemisphere and the Southern are internationally known for the obvious reasons, Just because Southern Hemisphere for example dosen't apply to U.S.A., does not mean the sentence shouldn't be added. That is like taking out the millions of articles that have different sentences saying " - is the tallest building in the - region" (- obviously mean the names of the places) In this sentence you can substitue the word 'tallest' with words including : Oldest, Biggest, Largest, Highest, Smallest, Youngest, Heaviest, Lightest,etc., and you can substitue the word building with words icluding: Shopping Centre, Car, Shark, Train, Dinosaur, Mountain, Tree, House, Ruler, DVD etc.! Last but not least you can also substitute the word region with: Country, Nation, Suburb, State, City, Area, Hemisphere, Continent etc...
 * With these examples above, Most articles under all these different catogories have something that says "biggest or smallest" etc.
 * Now that we have cleared that, Your source that you have provided, Does not seem to mention "Largest Shopping Centre in the Southern Hemisphere", That becomes a problem, because Chadstone, has 20 sources that I have listed, stating clearly its position as the largest in the Southern Hemisphere. If you click on any one of these, you will be able to see my point.
 * ,, ,,,, ,,, , , ,, , , ,,,


 * I dug pretty deep to find sources, in my own time where I could have been doing other things, So yes, I think it's time for people who oppose to start digging deep too, finding sources, that are not discussions, or sources that contradict other sources. Thank You -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 06:02, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * One last comment. 247,027 m2 is greater than 190,000 m2. It's a simple matter of mathematics. Bye. Cuddy Wifter (talk) 07:28, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know what is so hard to understand: "Chadstone is the Southern Hemisphere's Largest Shopping Centre.
 * It's a simple matter of getting reliable sources. Bye Cuddy Wifter :) -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 08:22, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Whatever is the largest in Southern Hemisphere, Chadstone is not! And should be removed from the text. It creates wrong information misleading people to think it's the largets, and the thruth is not. This article contradict WIKIPEDIA itself here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_shopping_malls_in_the_world PLEASE REMOVE THE WRONG INFORMATION AND MAKE WIKIPEDIA THE RIGHT PLACE FOR THE TRUTH !
 * Oh, so the 20+ references that have been provided, above, what are they? And also, that article that you mention, is just missing a few of its vitals: References to corobarate the list of malls sizes -- on that note of references, perhaps references that are in the era after Chadstone's extension late 2009...Thank You. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk to me) 11:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Photos
Can someone fix the layout of the photos please, I don't know how to do it. Also, do we need three photos? Thank you muchly. Roaming27 21:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Location Malvern East vs Chadstone
According to the Official Victorian Government VICNAMES register at http://services.land.vic.gov.au/vicnames/ Chadstone is located in Malvern East and not Chadstone, however a recent post has changed the location to Chadstone.

I believe the centre is in Malvern East?

What do you think?

Jackaroo1970 (talk) 08:19, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Just checked, the centre is entirely within Malvern East, according to the Victorian Government Planning Maps . I will make all required changes. --Lakeyboy (talk) 09:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Oldest?
I believe The Mall, Heidelberg West, is the oldest shopping centre in Australia. It is located in what was the Olympic Village and was opened in time for the 1957 Olympic Games. It is essentially unchanged from that time and by today's standards is tired and run-down. Bmorey (talk) 04:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This could be the case, but you'd need to find a decent ref. Chadstone is widely considered the first, so you'd probably need something pretty convincing to prove otherwise. --jjron (talk) 16:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

The oldest claim is a bit 'iffy' at best. It probably depends on the definition of word 'regional'. Where I live in Sydney we now have to new Top Ryde City shopping mall which replaced the old mall. The Ryde City website makes the claim:- "The original Top Ryde shopping centre was erected in 1957 and was the first Post War retail mall on the American model which was erected in NSW." Which is a little strange in itself because the bronze grand opening plaque states Sept 15 1955. However I suppose that's a bit like the above-mentioned "1957 Olympic Games". See website here:- http://www.ryde.nsw.gov.au/Development/Top+Ryde+City+Shopping+Centre (Terrybebb (talk) 02:11, 27 March 2013 (UTC))
 * "Opened in October 1960 at a cost of £6 million,[6][7] Chadstone Shopping Centre was the first self-contained regional shopping centre in Melbourne" - does not mention outside of Melbourne. Top Ryde's interstate. — Mel bourne Star ☆ talk 02:25, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Is Chadstone the largest shopping centre in the southern hemisphere?
According to Chadstone's management and some sources, Chadstone is the largest shopping centre in the southern hemisphere. However, other shopping centres make the same claim (for example, the Gateway Theatre of Shopping ), and there is at least one southern hemisphere shopping centre (Centro Comercial Aricanduva) which is larger in size. So do we continue to claim that Chadstone is the largest because there are some sources making this claim, do we remove the claim altogether, or do we try compromise wording which makes it clear that Chadstone claims to be the largest, but leaves it unstated whether or not it actually is? - Bilby (talk) 11:02, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Please someone help, I mean, the centre's (Chadstone) website and brochure that is updated regularly, still states "largest in the Southern Hemisphere" [Chadstoneshopping.com.au/centreinfo], and also government website, City of Stonnington, (home of Chadstone) [stonnington.vic.gov.au/explore-stonnington], oh and also 20 other references in the topic called: "Largest?". Thank You -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk to me) 11:35, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As outlined above, my concern isn't that there aren't sources claiming that Chadstone is the largest, although there are a lack of authoritative ones (most are primary sources or marketing-oriented ones), but that the sources seem to be contradicted by other sources, such as those related to Centro Comercial Aricanduva, which is listed as being bigger. - Bilby (talk) 13:27, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If a Centre's own website and brochure, a government website, 20~ other references, is not enough for you, I honestly don't know what is. It is CLEAR that Chadstone's bigger...and you or others may think that I am supporting this centre because it's local to me or because its biggest -- when in fact its none of those reasons. Im just proving my point. Personally I wish that Westfield Southland wad bigger...but its not. You don't see me desperately trying to find sources saying that is.
 * I am a local to the centre, I'll try my best to find more information in the near future. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk to me) 13:41, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid, no, I don't find them enough - the two you point to are a primary source and a tourism site, both of which have a vested interest in claiming that Chadstone are the biggest. But my issue isn't that there aren't sources, questionable or not, but that they are contradicted. If there was nothing contradicting them I'd be happy. Thus I'd like opinions on how to proceed. Anyway, I'll wait and see what the RfC brings, and I'll happily concede to consensus. - Bilby (talk) 14:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Personally, the tourist brochure that you have provided ), dosent make me feel anymore comfortable. You're correct, its time a fresh pair of eyes take a look -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk to me) 21:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As a fresh pair of eyes I think: We have sources which verify that Chadstone is one of several shopping centres claiming to be the largest in the southern hemisphere, so that's what the article should say. We don't have the sources at the moment to verify which of them is indeed largest, so we should avoid saying that one of them is. (Indeed, they might all be correct in claiming to be 'the largest', just judging by different criteria: one might have the most stores, whereas another might occupy the largest piece of land).Spoonriver (talk) 02:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I've tried that, but it hasn't stuck. However, I'd be happy with wording along those lines. - Bilby (talk) 02:24, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Although I still take my stance, I have re-worded from "Currently known as the largest..." to "Currently claimed to be the largest..." . There is a difference, although references have shown not to support this new wording, it is "fine" by me to stay like this. Any otherr suggestions? -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk to me) 04:47, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, if there is doubt or counter claims then we word it to make the reader aware of the situation. We use as neutral language as possible. "Claimed" or similar wording carries a negative connotation. It is difficult to avoid such wording without sounding awkward, though "reported" or "stated" might be tried, or "the centre's website says:'QUOTE'" It's useful when such statements are backed up by facts. "Largest" in what respect would be useful - floor space? number of retail outlets? number of customers?  SilkTork  *YES! 02:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I have tried to add statements from the different sources (20+) that I have provided, but I have failed, because there are editors who just won't accept facts. I have provided the Centre's website; Centre's brochure; A website in works with the Victorian Government; etc. I find it absolutely ludacris that more than 20 different sources are being "rejected", even though the sources date from 2009-present, and the editors who say the centre is not larger, have provided few out-dated brochure/discussions and or websites that contradict eachother. -- [[Image:Flag of Australia.svg|25px]] MelbourneStar☆ (talk to me) 07:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Would "has been described as" have less of a negative connotation than "is claimed to be"? In regard to the sources, it isn't the number that's the problem, but their nature - they are generally promotional, which raises concerns. - Bilby (talk) 10:41, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And just out of curiosity, your sources, that you have provided are perfect? -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk to me) 10:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Not at all. :) If they were this would be easier to evaluate. The main two, though, are Business Insider and Eastern Connecticut State University, which both provide a GLA of 2.6 million sq ft for Aricanduva, compared to 2,000,000 sq ft for Chadstone. On that measure Chadstone can't be the largest in GLA, so, as SilkTork raised, we need to ask what basis Chadstone is making the claim that they are the largest (total area? number of stores? traffic?), and if we can include that claim without qualification. - Bilby (talk) 11:17, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm I know where your going with this. Look, Chadstone has provided a specific email address on it's website as well as it's Facebook page. I doubt they'll respond, but it's worth a try. What should I say? -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk to me) 11:25, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Skyscraper etc
I have restored my edits after a revert here by User:MelbourneStar.
 * That user has deleted as a reliable source a state government planning panel, appointed to advise both the state government and the local council, and reverted to a media release from (a) a real estate company and (b) a dead link to a media release from a concrete company.
 * There is no need to include in the lead paragraph trivia about it being "colloquially known as Chaddy".
 * There is no need to insert (with inappropriate capitalisation) the opening date of the post office in a sentence about the shopping centre's opening date.
 * The article begins with a style of expressing floor area as m sq2 per WP:MOSNUM. Let's stick to one style.
 * The inclusion of statements about current negotiations between the developers and council is redundant; the council has approved the development.
 * "Over" is incorrect in expressing a greater number; "more than" is correct.
 * The editor's assertion that "a skyscraper has no definition for the amount of floors" may be technically correct, but there is no need to repeat an example of journalistic hyperbole and ignorance. The Wikipedia article on Skyscraper lists a number of skyscrapers; though the 15-storey Milwaukee City Hall is included in a historical list of skyscrapers, that building was completed in 1895. A 14-storey office block or hotel would no more constitute a skyscraper today than a Holden Commodore would be regarded as a limousine -- though in 1895 those descriptions may have been apt. At best it's a "tower". In encyclopedic terms, 15 storeys is really just a multi-storey building. BlackCab (talk) 11:52, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Obviously it's too difficult for a user talk page post, but barring that,


 * Opinion.
 * Post office bares significance to the centre.
 * That's fine.
 * That's also fine.
 * Fine.
 * Do you have a source to corroborate that? And the defintion of a skyscraper won't change over the years as buildings get taller and taller. A skyscraper is a "very tall building with many floors"... that's very broad.


 * I'll also be adding a section, entitled "Notes", on the disputed floor area - 190,000m2 has been cited by sources. -- MST  ☆  R   (Chat Me!) 12:04, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The opening of the post office in fact "bares" no more significance to the opening of the shopping centre than does the opening of Myer or the newsagent or the greengrocer. My point about the use of "skyscraper" is that it is redundant. Eureka Tower or Rialto might be considered a skyscraper. To use the word about a 15-storey building (smaller than the Langham Hotel and many other city hotels) is unhelpful and unnecessary. The use of the word adds no real information and was included here only because a Sydney journalist chose, unwisely, to use it. It's just a 15-storey building. Any conflicting information on the floor area will be interesting; the state government planning panel, however, would be expected to have accurate data. An inaccuracy would presumably have been challenged by Stonnington Council. BlackCab (talk) 12:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "Building", will have to do then. I will dig up as much information regarding floor area; the 190,000m2 hasn't been the only inconsistency I have come across whilst fact checking. -- MST  ☆  R   (Chat Me!) 12:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)