Talk:Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche

Substantial Update
I just added a lot to this article. This involved a lot of work over time. The official biography available online from some of Chagdud Tulkus web sites is written in a warm, flowery style, appropiate to Namtars -Tibetan Spritual Biographies. For Wikipedia I concentrated on translating all sources available to me, into a straight Western encyclopedia type article focusing on highlights of his career. I did use bits and pieces of facts from other descriptions of him, but everything has been substantially rewritten. It is not original research, but secondary or tertiary research. It can all be verified from his books, or articles written about him in other publications. The three block quotes all cite the sources.

His passing was his final teaching.Note I do not use the word miraculous, but quote what his son said about his passing. I will see if I can put the original Brazilian press release here. This practice has not happened much in the West, but note the article on Chokyi Lodro Rinpoche in which he also went out doing (t'hug dam). This is something Tibetan Lamas tend to do, so it is worthy of being reported about, whether one believes in its validity or not.Jlpinkme 9:54 PM 15 October 2006 UTC

"Miraculous" Death
While I personally do not doubt that His Eminence's death was indeed miraculous and that he was a highly realized being, such hagiographical usage is, I feel, not in line with a biographical encyclopedia article and I have therefore removed it. Zero sharp 20:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Problem setting date of death
Which date should we use as death date? I suppose the one which was entered into the public records? But which date is that? __meco 22:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the full biography downloadable from the official website states that his transition from his body took place on November 17, 2002, not November 22 which his son's quote seems to indicate in our current article. __meco 23:04, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Made links. Please see WP:REDLINK.
Made links. Please see WP:REDLINK. Please make stubs for any red-linked article that you can. Thanks. -- Writtenonsand 23:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Too detailed?
I question whether the level of detail in this article is necessary / appropriate for Wikipedia. -- Writtenonsand 00:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Flowery language
"He was known and respected in the West for his teachings, and also for his melodic chanting voice, his artistry as a sculptor and painter, his limitless compassion, and his sense of humor. He was the source of treasured Nyingma lineage transmissions for the thousands of people whom he taught in North and South America, Asia, Australia, and Europe."

I think this is a bit much. All teachers in a lineage are important for transmissions. Any believer believes that their lineage's transmissions are treasured. Respected by whom? Limitless compassion is a Buddhist virtue but it doesn't feel objective. Would people have really referred to his painting if he hadn't been a Tulku? Secretlondon (talk) 23:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * agreed. I mean no disrespect at all to H.E. or his disciples, but this is not in line with the encyclopedia. To that end, I've added the 'peacock' template to indicate that this article needs the hagiographical tone turned down a bit. Thanks! Zero sharp (talk) 23:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

All sources seem to be connected to the subject? We also need to say where in the Nyingma hierarchy he is. Secretlondon (talk) 23:18, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The article needs renaming as well. Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche is his religious name, and all reincarnations will have the same name. We need the article on the incarnation/individual under their non Tulku name, and an article on the history of them under this name. I've tried to do similar with Tai Situ and Péma Tönyö Nyinjé separating the Tai Situpas from any individual incarnation.

We need to have a proper plan for dealing with Tulku articles. I'll jot down some thoughts on the wikiproject. Secretlondon (talk) 23:18, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Looking at our article on Nyingma he doesn't seem to be that high up in their hierarchy. Secretlondon (talk) 23:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * from my (admittedly limited) understanding, HE Chagdud Tulku is certainly notable (whether or not this is attested by the references I'm _not_ saying, this is just my sense) as a fairly recent Nyingma master who had a lot of activity, translations, teachings, etc.  That said, yes, we certainly do need some outside, verifiable sources.  Zero sharp (talk) 00:03, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is stuff we need to find out. "Chagdud Gonpa centers practice Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism, primarily in the Nyingmapa tradition of Guru Padmasambhava." from here. I know basically nothing about Nyingma - maybe he is higher profile as he's worked mainly in the US? Secretlondon (talk) 00:08, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

All our references seem to be from Padma Publishing which seems to be the publishing arm of the "Chagdud Gonpa Foundation". I don't think we can count these as independent of the subject. Secretlondon (talk) 00:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Chagdud Tulku was an extremely high profile Tulku in the West. Also, the criticism that Padma Publishing is an "arm" of Chagdud Gonpa Foundation is misplaced. Nearly all the publishers in the field were started by one school or foundation or other. For example, Tharpa Publishing was started by Kelsang Gyatso and publishes all the New Kadampa Tradition books. There are other examples. The point being that this is a reputable publisher publishing professional quality books: these aren't stapled pamphlets. When an organization is as large and as notable as Chagdud Tulku's that they have their own professional publishing company, they aren't going to submit books to other publishers. So there won't be any other in-depth sources, only mentions in more general books. This is not a valid argument that the sources aren't reliable. GlassFET 16:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that perspective, GlassFET Zero sharp (talk) 19:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think we'd take Tharpa Publishing as a reliable source on the NKT either. "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.". This has no third party sources. Secretlondon (talk) 00:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Brazilian Press Release at the time of his death
PRESS RELEASE TO THE BRAZILIAN MEDIA THE DEATH OF HIS EMINENCE CHAGDUD TULKU RINPOCHE NOVEMBER 23, 2002 The son of His Eminence Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, the recently deceased Tibetan Buddhist lama who established many meditation centers in Brazil, has arrived from California to lead traditional Tibetan ceremonies for his father. Jigme Tromge Rinpoche, 38, is the head of a Buddhist center in Sebastopol, California. Chagdud Rinpoche passed away following a heart failure in the early morning hours of Sunday, November 17th, in the bedroom of his apartment at Khadro Ling, his main center in Brazil. He is survived by his son, his wife, Chagdud Khadro, 55, his daughter, Dawa Tromge, 32, and a half-sister, Trinley Wangmo, who lives in Eastern Tibet. Jigme Rinpoche will carry out these ceremonies in Brazil with the assistance of several other Tibetan lamas, two of whom*Lama Chodrak Gyatso and Lama Sonam Tsering* who have traveled to Brazil from the United States. Ceremonies are also underway in the United States, Tibet, Nepal, India, Switzerland, and France in the monasteries and Buddhist centers that were under Chagdud Rinpoche's direction or associated with his tradition. His tradition is the Nyingmapa, or "Old Translation School" of Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism. In regard to the death of his father and the ceremonies that will be performed, Jigme Rinpoche made the following statement: "My father had a serious heart condition for a long time. In recent years he has been under the care of an excellent cardiologist in São Paulo. However, in recent months he had foresight that he had entered the end-of-life transition. He cancelled a trip to the United States and instead entered a strict retreat at Khadro Ling. He insisted on scheduling a teaching event on transferring the consciousness at the moment of death, and those were the teachings he was giving until 9 pm on the night before his passing away. On Saturday afternoon, November 16th, I received a telephone call in California and was told that Rinpoche said, "I'm going to go." For a moment I was shocked and took the message to mean that he meant the journey of death. However, the caller interpreted Rinpoche's words to mean that he would go see his cardiologist. I relaxed a bit, but actually he did go on Sunday morning at about 4:15 am, when his heart failed. After his last breath, my father remained in a state of meditation for almost six full days that prevented the usual deterioration of his body. The ability to remain in a state of meditation after the breath stops is well-known among great Tibetan masters, but circumstances have rarely allowed it to occur in the West. Chagdud Rinpoche remained sitting in a natural, lifelike meditation posture, with little visible change of color or expression. During that time, no one touched his body. Until the sixth day, Friday, November 22rd, Rinpoche showed no physical signs that his meditation had ended. In the interim we were in constant consultation with a lawyer and other officials about local customs and regulations. Friday midday, his meditation ended and his mind separated from his body. Within hours, his appearance changed. He took on the signs typical of those occurring within the first 24 hours of death. Officials from the sanitation department inspected the body and a professional funeral service transported it to where it will be embalmed. As soon as arrangements are completed, it will be flown to Nepal, where Chagdud Rinpoche has a center, and very extensive ceremonies will be performed by many high lamas. These will continue for the seven weeks after Rinpoche's passing away, until January 5, 2003. At a later time, more ceremonies, attended by people from all over the world, will be performed and Rinpoche will be cremated. The laws of Nepal allow this postponement of cremation. All Tibetan ceremonies have the same central purpose, which is to purify the faults and obscurations that cover our mind's natural purity, and to generate the merit that enhances the peace and well-being of all living beings. Death ceremonies, in particular, powerfully reflect this intention. For many people, the turbulence of the moment of death may cause them to forget their spiritual refuge, whether it is Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, or any of the other spiritual traditions. For this reason their friends and family seek the guidance of lamas, priests, and ministers who are trained in the prayers and meditation that will support the deceased person in their transition. Likewise, in most traditions we offer lights, whether they are butterlamps or candles, which are symbolic of illumination overcoming darkness. We also make offerings in the name of the deceased. In Tibet, offerings would be given to monasteries. In the West, offerings are donated to charitable projects. The death ceremonies done for a spiritual master like my father are similar in purpose, but they are also different in that they are not performed for his specific benefit. His Eminence Chagdud Rinpoche is capable of completely directing his own mind through the transition of death and his vast merit is reflected by all he has been able to accomplish. This is especially apparent in Brazil, where he has built the first Tibetan temple in South America, with beautiful artwork and implements of traditional designs. Even the shrineroom's huge drum, made in Brazil, is exactly what we would expect to see in Tibet.

Rinpoche has also left a legacy of well-trained students. He ordained three Brazilians as lamas, in recognition of their capability to teach and guide students. His chant master, a 17-year-old Brazilian, has a remarkable voice and has the sound and stamina of a Tibetan chant master. Rinpoche also trained his students in art and ritual. And, most of all, he established many Brazilians on the spiritual path. The inner peace and meditative insight that they find in their own lives increase the well-being of their families, friends, and acquaintances. The ultimate intention of our spiritual practice is to benefit all beings, close and distant, friend and enemy, without any distinction. So, when we perform ceremonies for Rinpoche, we invoke his blessing and the blessings of all the wisdom beings in all realms of existence for the continuance of Rinpoche's accomplishments in this life. We pray that his blessing and our prayers will link together so that our own spiritual aspirations will be fulfilled. Rinpoche's passing away was a very rare and precious demonstration of superb meditation. The state he achieved after his last breath is the kind of spiritual event that is the source of legends in Tibet. It is wonderful that it could occur here, in Brazil. Rinpoche chose to come to this country because he saw great spiritual potential in many Brazilians. I think his manner of dying was his very last spiritual teaching to the students and friends he found here. The generosity of the Brazilian people has been obvious not only in the offerings toward butterlamps and ceremonies, but in the consideration shown to us by the officials working with us. We are extremely grateful for the religious tolerance in Brazil. As his son and his devoted student, I hope that a great multiplicity of blessings arise in this country, and I am committed to continuing his work here."

Well ,am finally getting around to posting this.; as to determining his death time, the Tibetan community would probably see it as that Friday, Nov. 22nd, 2002, when as Tulku Jigme notes: " Within hours, his appearance changed. He took on the signs typical of those occurring within the first 24 hours of death."

I think this can be handled in a way in which Wikipedia doesn't necessarily endorse a belief/system, but merely reports that this is the way many Tibetan Lamas pass away. Chokyi Lodro comes to mind as an example. Jlpinkme Jlpinkme (talk) 02:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Jane Tromge Is she said to be the incarnation or emanation of some tibetan woman?
 * Austerlitz -- 88.72.30.4 (talk) 07:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Wifes and Consorts
As we know Padmasambhava has often been depicted with two of his consorts, Yeshe Tsogyal and Mandarava, at his sides, one to the right and the other to the left. Who knows the iconographic meaning ot the respective side? The wikisite Mandarava says: "When depicted with Padmasambhava, Mandarava is iconographically represented to his left." Then Yeshe Tsogyal who usually is depicted with somewhat brownish skincolor most probably must be sitting to his right. Is this a topic here, too?
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.73.202 (talk) 10:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Reincarnation
Is there a recognised reincarnation of the Chagdud lineage ? Nil Einne (talk) 07:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. Skyerise (talk) 22:52, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Wife?
The article mentions him having a wife at the end, but doesn't say anything about him getting remarried.Sylvain1972 (talk) 22:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Skincolor
Yeshe Tsogyal and Mandarava for example, Jealousy among the Sangha Quoting Jeremy Hayward from his book on Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche Warrior-King of Shambhala: Remembering Chögyam Trungpa Is there any information?
 * -- 88.75.195.226 (talk) 14:54, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Categories
I have added Category:Chinese people as the parent category for those born within the borders of China. This is hardly ideal, given the controversy over China's occupation of Tibet. However, the information in the article and external links is extremely vague about birthplace, and it is impossible to narrow this down to a specific administrative region (Kham is part of four different administrative regions). If anyone can move this article to a lower-level geographic category, please do so. Skinsmoke (talk) 10:43, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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