Talk:Chaim Dov Keller

Rabbis Keller's views
User:PinchasC is asserting that Rabbi's Keller's wrtings do not reflect Agudah's views. He fails to see that since Rabbi Keller is on Presidium of Agudah and writes essentially official articles for them, his wrtings therefore reflect the Agudah position. Does that need "proof" or a "citation" if the Keller's own writings say what he means and mean what he says? IZAK 22:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The following statements are unsourced:


 * Rabbi Keller and his co-dean have become two of the most prominent rabbis in Chicago and in most of Illinois.


 * Rabbi Keller then became one of Agudath Israel of America's "official voices.


 * Rabbi Keller has become one of the strongest and most authoritative voices of non-Hasidic Lithuanian style Haredi Judaism.


 * Agudath Israel's official magazine, The Jewish Observer, conveys the official stand of the organization particularly so when a member of its official governing Presidium, such as Rabbi Keller is the writer. (Also take a look at the previous sentence stating "Rabbi Keller became a member of its "Nesius" ("Presidium"), a lesser yet still prestigious appointment.")

--PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  22:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thus Rabbi Keller's article: "God Centered or Rebbe/Messiah - Centered" in the June 1997 can be viewed as as serious attack on Chabad by Agudath Israel as a whole.

Note to User:PinchasC: Your focus on the words I wrote by stressing them through bolding them only goes to show how careful I was with every word so that it reflects the truth accurately. You are arguing by inuendo and avoiding the isues. IZAK 23:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

In most of the cases above User:PinchasC is overlooking the basic facts as they are presented and the sources cited actually speak for themselves disproving his unwarranted assertion that there are "no" sources. Taking it one by one:


 * Rabbi Keller and his co-dean have become two of the most prominent rabbis in Chicago and in most of Illinois.
 * This is true for a number of reasons. Agudah is lead by its rosh yeshivas in America, and the ones in Chicago are at the epicenter of Agudath Israel Midwest a direct affiliate of Agudath Israel of America. There are many publications and references to this on the web.
 * This (original research) still does not make him and his co-dean the 2 most prominent rabbis. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  23:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Which part is "original research"? At any rate, who do you think are the two best known yeshiva deans in Illinois? IZAK 23:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The article writes Rabbis not Yeshivah deans, and what I or you think doesn't matter, it is reliable sources that do. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  23:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Are yeshiva deans not rabbis? This is getting silly! And the Agudah publications are reliable sources as far as the Haredi world is concerned. IZAK 09:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Rabbi Keller then became one of Agudath Israel of America's "official voices.
 * This is VERY true because they are both in the top echelon of Agudah's leadership. Rabbi Levin is a member of Agudah's elite Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah (only about eight rabbis in this group) and Rabbi Keller is on the Nesius (it has about twelve memebers) and when they speak in public or WRITE articles especially in Agudah's own publications, then it's a policy pronouncement, pure and simple. That is a fact. Does it need a "citation" if Agudah's own publications push those pronouncements, and they are cited here?
 * "In the top echelon" (defining this in the way that you are doing also being original research) does not make him an official voice of the group. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  23:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you saying? You are making NO sense. Do you know anything about Agudah? Would you dispute that an organization's Board of Directors, for example, is "not" it's leadership? The rabbis lead Agudah. You are stonewalling. IZAK 23:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A member of a board of directors (which this is not the case here) is not an official voice. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  23:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * He is on Agudah's Nesius. The Nesius and the Moetzes work together. Very few members of the Nesius or the Moetzes (choose to) go on record, and when one of them does so, like Rabbi Keller who often does do so, and speaks for them, often in writing in Agudah publications, it's an official position. It can't get more official than that as far as the Agudah movement is concerned. Aside from Lubavitch, Haredim hate propaganda and any form of publicity and they stay away from the general media as if from the devil, so that if they have one established magazine (that often becomes the basis for ArtScroll books) and a couple of newspapers that write for their own people, it's pretty significant when a prominent Agudah rabbi (like Rabbi Keller) writes articles in them, when even that is a great rarity in those publications.IZAK 09:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Rabbi Keller has become one of the strongest and most authoritative voices of non-Hasidic Lithuanian style Haredi Judaism.
 * For same reasons as above PLUS his fame has spread all over the English-speaking Litvish yeshiva world in America and Israel where ALL know the name of Rabbi Keller. He has been around a long time and has been publishing articles in newspapers, magazines and books on Torah topics for decades. All litvish English-speaking Haredim in the yeshiva world respect and knwow him. Does that need a citation? if so many articles written by him are cited in this article as proof.
 * This is still your original research. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  23:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Can't you get a little more specific. Which fact that I have stated is "original research'? IZAK 23:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There are no reliable sources saying that he "become one of the strongest and most authoritative voices of non-Hasidic Lithuanian style Haredi Judaism" --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  23:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * PinchasC: If Rabbi Keller IS speaking in Agudah's publications so often then he is one of their strongest voices. That is like 1+1=2. Why can't you grasp that? Rules are not just a substitute for logic and fact. IZAK 09:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Agudath Israel's official magazine, The Jewish Observer, conveys the official stand of the organization particularly so when a member of its official governing Presidium, such as Rabbi Keller is the writer.
 * This is so true, clear, obvious and logical that one must assme that to question this is just nitpicking and not worthy of comment.
 * This is still your original research. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  23:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Blah, blah, blah, please explain yourself, you are being exasperating. Get off your perch and talk FACTS please and stop hurling accusations of OR against me. IZAK 23:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Blah, blah, blah,"? --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  23:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Blah, blah, blah, means you are not using arguments and each time a statement is made you just robotically utter "original research, original research, original research" when you should be responding to the argument/s and not just quoting "rules" which any robot can do. Wikipedia articles are based on its rules and all the skills of human reason and writing style. One does not exclude the other. Otherwise each sentence and paragraph on any article can be plastered with "fact" (as you are almost doing here, and it could even be harrasment) and even if sources are "cited" they may be lies, distortions and manipulations as you well know, so that our human brains must always be in play no matter how many or how few rules are or are not being applied. You should know this by now. It is a fine balance that every editor and certainly every admin needs to follow. IZAK 09:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thus Rabbi Keller's article: "God Centered or Rebbe/Messiah - Centered" in the June 1997 can be viewed as as serious attack on Chabad by Agudath Israel as a whole.
 * This was a key article that became famous in the Orthodox world. The Lubavitchers were enraged by it, which is why PinchasC does not like this statement probably, but the fact remains that the article received widesperead attention and the Agudah crowd stood and still stands by it as no-one has refuted or renounced in any way.
 * This is still your original research. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  23:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Blah, blah, blah again. Even your responses to me are cut-and-paste, why can't you discuss specific points? Do we need a third party to help us? IZAK 23:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Blah, blah, blah,"? --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  23:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Meaning, you are are still using robotic responses (in this case cutting and pasting away to your heart's delight) without facing the facts of the article that does cite sources and references. IZAK 09:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

So why is User:PinchasC peppering this article with these requests for unwarrented "sources" when the citaions, articles and logic here speaks for itself? Does every line need a citaion? What do other editors think? IZAK 22:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The section titled "Views" seems to me to be a matter of POV and may need to be removed/revised, unless supported by other sources. -- Nahum 04:23, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So Nahum, what do you suggest? What statments need improvement? IZAK 09:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Keller a posek ?
Chaim Dov Keller is not, to my knowledge, recognized as a halachic authority of any kind, and certainly not as a major decisor. I propose removal of the title posek from the beginning of this article. Winchester2313 (talk) 07:47, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

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