Talk:Champlain and St. Lawrence Railroad

Rail gauge muddle
If the rail gauge was at the start, when was it converted to Indian gauge  only to be converted back to standard gauge in the 1870s ? Peter Horn User talk 13:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That must be a typo... I don't have access to the history (my source was an issue of Canadian Rail - pub. by the CRHA) right at my fingertips as I'm currently travelling but I am certain it was built originally to Provincial Gauge and then converted to Standard Gauge as part of the Grand Trunk's system-wide standardization project.  Perhaps someone can confirm this. Plasma east (talk) 13:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's possible that portions were built standard, portions provincial, and the former never converted. This was, I believe, two lines, one to Rouses Point via St.-Jean-sur-Richelieu and the other to Mooers via Lachine. --NE2 02:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Mooers via Lachine? Really? Where did that line cross the Saint Lawrence River? The Victoria Bridge which was opened in 1859, was for a long time the only rail bridge across the Saint Lawrence. Since the Central Vermont was standard gauge, where was the break-of-gauge? Peter Horn User talk 18:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * At least until the opening of the Victoria Bridge, if not later as well, the crossing of the Saint Lawrence would have been from Lachine to La Prairie by boat. But from La Prairie to Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu was the original route of the Champlain and St. Lawrence Railroad. Peter Horn User talk 19:17, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Lachine was the end of the original portage around the falls at Montreal. Then, yes, there was a ferry transfer to cross the river - but to Kahnawake, not La Prairie. See for instance this map. --NE2 20:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The plot gets thicker. So that line ran from Kahnawake past Hemmingford and across the international border to Mooers and beyond. Hence that is not the Champlain and St. Lawrence Railroad and may well have been standard gauge from the start. The map, which appears to be printed before the Victoria Bridge was built, shows a branch of the Champlain and St. Lawrence Railroad going to Saint-Lambert. The line into La Prairie was abandoned at some pint and the route from Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu to Saint-Lambert became part of the Grand Trunk and eventually part of the CN. The first tracks across the Victoria Bridge in 1859 were no doubt provincial gauge and so would the line from Saint-Lambert to Saint-Jean have been. Peter Horn User talk 23:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Another question: Where was the departure point on the Montreal side for the crossing to La Prairie? The Lachine Rapids, not falls, are between Kahnawake and La Prairie. Peter Horn User talk 23:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you have any source for the Saint-Lambert - Saint-Jean line (which was partially built in 1835) being provincial gauge? The Mooers line, by the way, was the Montreal and New York Railroad, merged with the Champlain and St. Lawrence Railroad to form the Montreal and Champlain Railroad (which you just redirected here). --NE2 03:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the map, the Mooers line and the Champlain and St. Lawrence Railroad did not appear to be physically connected at the immediate south shore of the Saint Lawrence River so there would be no problem with each having a different gauge. But Plasma east will have to answer your question(s) when he gets back from his trip and will be able to consult his reference works, see above. However the Grand Trunk Railway which was until 1873 and which owned the tracks across the Victoria Bridge towards points east would be highly, highly, unlikely to tolerate a standard gauge subsiduary out of Saint-Lambert. The Champlain and St. Lawrence Railroad was only rebuilt with steel rails in the 1850s (see the article) and even if it was standard gauge at the outset, the Grand Trunk would likely convert it to what was its standard at the time that the Grand Trunk aquired the Champlain and St. Lawrence. And what would be a better time to do this than when the track was rebuilt anyway. But to get the definite answer we'll have to wait until Plasma east will be back home and able to consult his references and thereby answer my original question(s) at the start (top) of this discussion. Peter Horn User talk 00:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The map shows nothing about gauges. Don't make guesses. --NE2 01:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course not, but we'll have to wait until Plasma gets back to get the answer(s). Peter Horn User talk 01:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The Champlain and St. Lawrence Railroad was never part of the GT's route to Portland. The St. Lawrence and Atlantic Railroad was that route. This helps in sorting things out. Peter Horn User talk 01:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC) ||The Rise and Fall of Provincial Gauge by O.S.A. Lavallee in "Canadian Rail" No.141, 1963, says the line was built to. | Provincial or Broad Gauge does NOT list it as one of the railways built to. On this basis I am going to delete references to it being built to the broad gauge. Tjej (talk) 03:41, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The following site gives "Indian gauge": Peter Horn User talk 02:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I looked at that reference and it says "The source of this article is wikipedia, the free encyclopedia." so this is NOT the source.

Digging into the history of this article I found two edits by an anonymous user namely: and. He (she) is the source of this muddle and this is one more reason to ban anonymous (unregistered) users. Peter Horn User talk 02:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

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