Talk:Champs-Élysées/Archive 1

About hyphens
I've been doing a bit of digging, looking at street maps, etc to find out the exact name of the street. So far, I have "Avenue des Champs-Élysées", with a hyphen, as the dominant form, although my Michelin map of Paris omits it. I'll leave this open to debate. If we can pin it down, maybe the page should be moved to the longer name. -- Tarquin 03:37 Aug 31, 2002 (PDT)

-- There is a tendency, when writing French, to use hyphens, such as Notre-Dame, Sacré-Coeur, Saint-Denis (the church), Marie-Antoinette, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, etc. In my opinion, one should follow this principle for French names. But some good British authorities omit the hyphen between a French person's Christian names. S.

Some French given names are double-barelled: "Jean-Jacques" is one single name, "Jean Jacques" is a first name and middle name. My Larousse hyphenates Departement & commune names, and also "Champs-Elysees", but gives the name as just that. -- Tarquin

The layout needs the expertise of a User:Duncharris, to line the images down the righthand side.


 * French typography rules add hyphens between every component of a street name (the same is true for cities). Therefore the correct name in French is "avenue des Champs-Élysées". We follow that convention on Wikipedia-fr (Avenue des Champs-Élysées). But many sources don't follow that convention, including the "official" Nomenclature des voies de Paris (which should not be taken as an authority on typography since it often omit accents on uppercase letters). Thbz 21:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

German occupation
During the Nazi invasion, German troops doubled the number of trees lining the famous avenue, reportedly because they preferred to march in the shade. I can't find any source for this. Could anyone help, or remove the sentence if no source can be provided ? -- Ze miguel 13:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It's an old joke. Usually it says: "Do you know why there are trees along the avenues in Paris? — So that the German troops may march in the shade when they come." (Trees cannot provide any shade on such a large avenue). Thbz 21:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I knew about the joke. I had a slight doubt that maybe it had a real origin. Thanks for removing it. -- Ze miguel 09:39, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Correct accent
I do believe the correct way of spelling it is Champs Elysées. (i.e. no accent on the capital E). Also this article should live under 'Avenue des Champs Elysées'. Thirdly, living in Paris, I cannot recall any instances of where it is hyphenated.
 * It is hyphenated and has the accent in the "Dictionnaire administratif et historique des rues de Paris et de ses monuments" (1844, a very important book). It's probably the same on street signs (which usually have the accent on capital letters), I'll check next time I go there. And French typography rules say it must be hyphenated and have the accent (note that I don't know what are the typography rules here, since this Wikipedia speaks English, not French). Thbz 22:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * See a Champs-Élysées street sign at http://www.house-signs-co.com/en/paris_street_signs.php (with hyphen and accents). It's not official, but we can assume it was copied from the real thing... Thbz 06:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * A Google Image search for actual signs shows a lack of consistency even on the actual street itself. For instance:


 * Hyphen, and two accents: http://www.phenry.org/europe/graphics/13sign.jpg, http://www.kottke.org/plus/photos/200105europe/champs02.jpg


 * No hyphen, and two accents: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:SignChampsElysees.JPG, http://europeforvisitors.com/paris/photos/images/paris_signs_avenue_des_champs_elysees_205009.jpg


 * No hyphen, and one accent: http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/Tours/Paris/ChampsElysees/ChampsElyseesSign.jpg (may not be genuine?)


 * The majority seem to have a hyphen and two accents, but some of the newer-looking ones dispense with the hyphen. 143.252.80.110 11:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I didn't thing there was so much inconsistency... Two links I found about typographie, both of which say "Champs-Élysées" : http://www.cuy.be/orthotypo/orthotypo_maj_accent.htm and http://www.editions-glyphe.com/images/48/Typo.pdf (page 9). Thbz 23:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The general rule is that all characters should be accented if accents they have, but it is generally accepted, and mainly for signmaking esthetical value and - IMHO - because of older typewriters, that upper-case letters can dispense with the accent. I don't think we're signpainters clunking away on old Westwoods, so best put accents in where they're due. As for the hyphens... the "trait d'union" seems to appear with any 'descriptive adjective' in a name - since Champs-Élysées translates to "Fields filled with Lys" the shorter form is to describe the fields as "flower'd" - or "Élysées". "Cerf-volant" (kite, or literally "flying deer" (aside - 'deer' from Gallic 'spread')) is another example... in short, most any descriptive word in French names is joined to its 'owner' by a hyphen. -- T HE P ROMENADER  10:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sceptical about the view that accentless forms are for people with old typewriters. You can search the Le Monde and Libération newspaper websites and see overwhelmingly accentless forms. The accentless form also appears to be the more common spelling on .gouv.fr sites. The accent goes missing even in the best sources: the Larousse Dictionnaire des Difficultés de la Langue Française (2001 edition), for example, has "Etats-Unis", "Coup d'Etat", etc.  86.181.64.208 (talk) 20:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * To 86.181.64.208: Couldn't find a better answer. Please read the whole page: http://www.cuy.be/orthotypo/orthotypo_maj_accent.htm. --Frania W. (talk) 02:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Width?
How wide is it?

Seabhcán 17:42, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * According to http://www.v1.paris.fr/CARTO/nomenclature/1733.nom.html, 70 metres. 143.252.80.110 11:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Audio file
The playable audio file linked to at the beginning of the article is not playing the entire name. It only says "les Champs El-- " and suddenly stops. Maybe this is a glitch on my side? I am running Ubuntu Linux 6.10. Can someone else check this out?

Trees
The close-clipped trees are lindens, or are they not? Isn't it true that they were all cut down at the time of the Paris Commune and were replanted afterwards? There is nothing about the trees in the article. --Wetman 23:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Champs Elysees the song?
I know there's a song sung by a few artists called Aux Champs Elysees.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OAMuNfs89yE http://youtube.com/watch?v=ejGdQ2Xg5GA

NoFX Version and a French singer's version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ben0104 (talk • contribs) 02:01, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Banning H&M
"the Paris City government (which has called this "banalization") decided in 2007 to ban the Swedish clothing chain H&M from opening a store on the avenue.[1] This street is also very popular with many of the rich and famous."
 * I think the ban has been somehow lifted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.204.155.118 (talk) 08:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We were on the Champs Élysées today and not only shopped but also purchased some clothes from the H&M which is open for business on the street. If there ever was a ban, it has since been lifted. We were surprised to see it there as it being banned stuck out as one of the most memorable parts of this article which we read before heading out. 90.2.135.168 (talk) 19:27, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

The Champs-Élysées are plural
You can talk abiout the Champs-Élysées (plural) or the Avenue des Champs-Élysées (singular), but only a rube would say "the Champs-Élysées ''is...". There's always a way round committing this American solecism— whether one thinks it's important or not— as the article should currently be demonstrating. Surely no one will insist on "the Champs-Élysées is..." if another way can easily be found.--Wetman (talk) 22:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Blanking description
We have an editor unfamiliar with Paris and the world, who attempted to delete— as "peacock terms"— the facts that the Champs-Élysées is prestigious, that is it one of the most famous streets in the world, and (though rental rates were quoted in the article)  the most expensive strip of real estate in Europe. I have reverted this. No doubt a juvenile attempt at comedy, and not an attempt at vandalism.--Wetman (talk) 21:37, 18 August 2009 (UTC)