Talk:Chance Phelps

Changes on 23 January 2009
1)Foremost, LCpl Phelps' medal were reworked. See below of specific details. 2)The Media Attention was updated to reflect the current state of the movie 'Taking Chance.' 3)Some links were chnaged to point to offical websites.

On the medal changes: Removed the Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal for the following reasons, and please, before you revert the changes on the main page, read below:

LCpl Phelps was not buried with the Iraqi Compaign Medal, but this medal IS authorized for wear on his uniform. He is only allowed to wear either the Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal (GWOTEM) OR the Iraqi Compaign Medal (ICM) since they were awarded for the same action. In this case, The ICM, created a little over one month after his death (May 24, 2004) would have replaced the GWOTEM asince the former is a higher, more specific award. Additionally, the reason we display his posthumous awards are to represent the proper honors for this Marine, as is the case here with the Bronze Star with V device being previously listed: he did not received that award until sometime after his death. So, the most correct, most current award set is currently displayed. Additionally, The Marine Corp Good Conduct medal was added. This medal is commonly awarded posthumously.

For Marine Corp policy on the relationship between the GWOTEM and ICM, please see below. The policy states what I claim above (See Paragraphs 2 and 6):

http://www.marines.mil/news/messages/Pages/MARADMIN299-08.aspx

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rorndoff (talk • contribs) 04:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've removed the Good Conduct Medal. As I noted below, it is possible, but not probable that he was awarded the Good Conduct Medal. Without some sort of source (a service record or something like that we can use as a reference, we can't claim he has one in this article.
 * For the ICM/GWOTE... you are correct that nobody can have both for the same deployment. However, neither is "superior" or "inferior" to the other. The GWOTE would have been automatically awarded to Phelps, and Taking Chance mentions that he was buried with it. To convert the GWOTE into the ICM, his family would have had to request that to the Marine Corps. There is no evidence that such a request to convert the awards was made, so we'll go with the more likely award.
 * Lastly, its better to have a variety of sources. If every reference is to the same website, other editors could make the case that Phelps is not notable enough for a Wikipedia article. Hope this helps.  bahamut0013  words deeds   05:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You are incorrect about ICM to GWOTEM precedence. The ICM definitely has a higher precedence for wear to the GWOTEM, and is a more specific award.  Not sure who you are quoting when saying, "'Superior" or Inferior'".  Additionally, 'Taking Chance' makes no mention of him being buried with the GWOTEM medal, although I do know that he was.  I will concede the point that no application or request was made for wear of the ICM in lieu of the GWOTEM.  I will do research on how this is handled posthumously and our family will begin work on it.  I guess the easiest way to settle the GCM discussion is to obtain LCpl Phelps service record, but when this is the case, how would I prove that: I don't think it would be appropriate to upload a Marine's service record to Wikipedia?  Open for suggestions.


 * Lastly, I'm reverting your changes to the 'Taking Chance' link. Officially, that is where the story is posted.  If we need to mediate that via a third party, that's fine, but I stand firm in this position.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rorndoff (talk • contribs) 07:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You referred to the ICM above as a "higher" award. The precedence of wear on the uniform is not the issue here. As far as a reference goes, if the family website can display a photo of the award or certificate or something along those lines, that would be good enough for me. If no such documentation exists, then I would suppose that nobody bothered to issue the award.
 * As far as the link is concerned... there really couldn't be an "official" site for the story, as the copyright rests with LtCol Strobl. Like I said before, an article with homogenous external links and references is a red flag to deletionists. You can add it as an additional reference, but the previous link should stay.  bahamut0013  words deeds   08:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I do not think that the worry of deletionists is cause for changing a link. I would rather, and I believe Wikipedia would rather, the link be more correct and point to the official site. I see now after looking at the page's revision history, you were the one that changed it from the original link to the original Chance Phelps Foundation site(run4chance.com) without citing a reason to do so.  Besides, there are several other well documented occurrences of LCpl Phelps being a notable biographic figure, and a standalone movie drafted from that same story.  I would venture to guess, say, Microsoft or Ford have homogenous links contained within their Wiki articles, but that they are not considered for deletion.  You are correct that LtCol Strobl maintains the copyright for that story, and per his direct permission it was posted on the Chance Phelps Foundation site.  In fact, when HBO developed the movie and sought to link to the original story, he pointed them to the Chance Phelps Foundation website.  At best, the previous link should be a secondary link. So, like I stated before, up for mediation by a third party if you desire.


 * On his GCM medal, we'll see what turns up in his official paperwork. You are correct: This page should be accurate, to give it the best justice, and if there is a doubt of this, proof should be supplied.  Once we get proof, I'll figure out someone to link/post it without releasing to much Personally Identifiable Information.


 * But on that, seriously, a question: There is other information on this page that is wrong.  For example: His place of birth.  He was actually born in Riverton, WY.  I'll change that now, someone will change it back.  But there has to be a line drawn somewhere, posting a birth certificate online, even of a deceased person, is not a good idea.  --Rorndoff (talk) 09:58, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The place of birth is simpler: it's whatever the family says it is. As long as the article matches the family website (the current reference), nobody should care. We can accept that LtCol Strobl made either a simple error or used the name Dubois as a matter of convenience.
 * The link: an assertation that the family website is the "correct" one is not based on any good logic. Any page can be a suitable reference, and calling the family website "official" is a bit of a joke. It's the best reference for the topic, but not the be-all, end-all reference. Like I said, there is no reason you should have reverted me: you could have added it instead of replacing it. The more references, the better. Unilaterally reverting was in poor taste.  bahamut0013  words deeds   13:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

First, LtCol Stobl, never said Chance was born in Dubois. Not in his story, or anywhere else. He lived in Dubois, which was mentioned. From the looks of it, it appear you have been the one on here making sole decisions about the contents of this young man's wiki-biography based on little fact yourself... Sorry, the link stands. It's not a "family" website, as you keep referring. It is an official 501.c.3 non-profit organization's website, that happens to receive great input from the family, but primary from people of over the US. Again, a fact you have wrong. It is the place where the story is reproduced via the copyright holders permission. My apologies for apparently making you angry or hurting your feelings, but it stays. Additionally, if your going to revert a change, you should review it, as you had left an open tag and damaged the page. --216.67.22.106 (talk) 18:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Rank & Awards
I have been changing the introduction rank of Chance Phelps to Lance Corporal and a few people have been repeatedly changing it back to Private First Class. Just an explanation as to why I have listed LCPL, as opposed to PFC: Technically at his death he WAS a LCPL, but he was in fact still wearing PFC rank. During the commotion caused by his unit deploying and conducting operations, the promotion had not yet caught up with him, and therefore, he had not yet been 'pinned' and his unit had not yet processed the promotion. After he died, he was officially promoted. But either way, he is, was, and will forever be a Lance Corporal in the USMC, so his introductory rank should be listed as such. Open for discussion, especially if there is a USMC regulation that states otherwise.

Also, I was recently corrected on his Sea Service Deployment ribbon, and I stand corrected: he was awarded this ribbon. But someone also removed LCPL Phelps Good Conduct Medal. I was informed by various Marines that Good Conduct Medals are awarded posthumously if Marines have no disciplinary action baring them from such an award. Anyone know if this is true?

Thanks for the help...

More on Above
Did some research after I wrote what's above, and this is what I found, from the criteria for award of the Good Conduct Medal, under the 'SERVICE' section:

"3. For first award only, the MCGCM may be awarded, provided conduct requirements are met, to the next of kin in those cases where service member is killed in combat action against an opposing armed force, or dies as a direct result of wounds received in combat action against an opposing armed force, or dies in the line of duty where such death was directly related to actions against the enemy. In addition, for the first award only, the MCGCM is authorized for individuals who are separated from the naval service for physical disability as a result of wounds incurred in combat action against an opposing armed force, or in the line of duty where such wounds resulted directly from action against the enemy, provided conduct requirements are met. For first award only, next of kin of Prisoners of War also would be eligible to receive the MCGCM if the service member’s demise occurs while in a POW status, provided it has been determined that conduct while in POW status was acceptable."

The 'CONDUCT' section (refered to in sentance 1, above) states that the awardee can not have any disciplinary action prior to the awarding of the medal.

See: http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/navawards/blmarinegoodconduct.htm

So, in summation, it says it can be awarded to next of kin when killed in action. I will re-verify with LCPL Phelps' mother and father about this award.


 * As far as I know, he was not offered this award, because he was awared the Bronze Star, which takes precedence. Additionally, the BS was awarded to him rather quickly, but at the time of the dedication of the mess hall on 29Palms in his name, a MCGCM was not listed in his biography when the SS was. It seems very unlikely that he would be given the lesser award Several years after he was awarded the higher one. As far as his rank goes, it seems someone found a compromise: to list him as a PFC and note the posthumous promotion; to which I agree. If retired Marines are referred to by the highest rank held, why not fallen Marines (though one could question if he ever "held" the rank due to his death before his promotion). But as far as I can tell, he was not pending a promotion at the time of his death; rather, it smells like it was pushed through as an honor. Bahamut0013 17:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Fred Phelps
Just wanted to make sure everyone knows Chance is related to Fred Phelps. Bahamut0013 22:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC) Most importantly it should be noted that Chance Phelps was awarded the Medal of Honor in Heaven by the GOD who created him and everything else is simply irrevellant! Without those who give it all in the name of Freedom, we wouldn't be here to discuss this topic. I believe the movie about him has brought much needed attention to the wars we wage on other nations in the name of Freedom. At the end of time God will settle it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! my2cents&more63.144.245.86 (talk) 20:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

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