Talk:Chancellor of the Exchequer

Really Old Stuff
To be added. I'm off to be now. Mintguy

John Anderson                 1943-1945     National Government Hugh Dalton                   1945-1947     Labour Stafford Cripps               1947-1950     Labour Hugh Gaitskell                1950-1951     Labour Richard Austen Butler         1951-1955     Conservative (Maurice) Harold Macmillan    1955-1957     Conservative Peter Thorneycroft            1957-1958     Conservative Derick Heathcoat Amory        1958-1960     Conservative Selwyn Lloyd                  1960-1962     Conservative Reginald Maudling             1962-1964     Conservative (Leonard) James Callaghan     1964-1967         Labour Roy Harris Jenkins            1967-1970         Labour Iain Macleod                  1970              Conservative Anthony Barber                1970-1974         Conservative Denis Healey                  1974-1979         Labour (Richard Edward) Geoffrey Howe 1979-1983        Conservative Nigel Lawson                  1983-1989         Conservative John Roy Major                1989-1990         Conservative Norman Lamont                 1990-1993         Conservative Kenneth Harry Clarke          1993-1997         Conservative Gordon Brown                  1997-             Labour

As this is the #1 hit on Google it deserves a better article. Goodnight Mintguy 22:43 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

- Hm. Some of the stuff in here should perhaps be moved to Exchequer. --mav 21:14 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Um... Exchequer is an archaic term that derives its name from a piece of chequered cloth that was once used to count money. The government department is acutally called 'the Treasury' or 'HM Treasury', only rarely called the Exchequer. Mintguy


 * What about other countries, though? Deb 21:24 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I don't know about other countries, but I was just wondering whether it is really correct to say, as the article currently does, "... the Chancellor of the Exchequer ... who heads the Exchequer"


 * Yeah, that's why I just redirected it to Chancellor of the Exchequer at first. But I guess the Exchequer article could talk about the original term some more. Adam Bishop 21:25 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I've done a rewrite to correct info (the Budget no longer takes place in March. Until a couple of years ago both Britain and Ireland used the Julian Calendar to run the tax year. That was only recently changed meaning that both counties moved their Budget dates from January (IRL) and April (UK) to November. Also some other info, including explaining what the C of the E is the equivalent of in other states. FearÉIREANN 22:31 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The tax year end still ends on April 5. It used to be 25 of March till the changeover of calendars, when people complained about having to pay a full years tax for a year less 11 days. Mintguy 01:33 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Third oldest office? Certainly Lord Chancellor and Lord Privy Seal are older, but I'd think others are as well...anyone know where that bit came from? john 05:59, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Robe of office
I recall there's a robe that the Chancellor wore on formal occasions, though by Snowden/Churchill's time this was just once a year to oversee the appointment of some magistrates. Anyone know when this was abolished altogether, along with the function.

Also am I right that this is the robe (as worn by Lord North)?



Timrollpickering 18:00, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

PC?
Removed 'PC' from Rt Hon Gordon Brown PC MP. PC is not normally used for a Member of the House of Commons. Privy Council status is indicated by Rt Hon. PC is often used for members of the House of Lords.

Changes
I've made some "bold"-ish changes to this. Apologies if I've overdone it (but I don't think I have). I have not removed anything but I have reorganised the text for style. I've added in a few bits, nothing major, but I have not checked any facts.

The basic point of these changes is to make the text flow more logically - ie summary, then important facts plus disambiguation, followed by detailed section on responsibilities, then trivia. Previous version was a bit all over the place.

Explanation of some of the changes:


 * To say "ancient title" in the first few words might suggest it is no longer the current title. Fine to point out that it's ancient, but it shouldn't be in the introductory sentence; I think it gives the wrong impression. The first sentence of the second par does now makes it clear that it is an ancient title, but better still would be if we could give a precise-ish date.
 * I didn't like the rest of the first sentence, either... "The Chancellor of the Exchequer is the ancient title held by the British cabinet minister whose responsibilities are akin to the posts of Minister for Finance or Secretary of the Treasury in other jurisdictions." - well, to define the post with reference to other countries seems peculiar, like saying "The Prime Minister is the office whose responsibilities are akin to the President or King in other countries". Better to define it first in terms of the UK system, then follow it with an explanation that relates to other countries.
 * The article need to emphasise the power of the office - hence one of the four offices of state is now more prominent, and the fact that he's generally number two to the PM is in par 2. (This needs emphasis, as the job is in this respect totally different to, say, the US Secretary to the Treasury, and for US readers it's not an obvious point.)
 * need to refer to HM Treasury from the start
 * "Historically, the Chancellor controlled monetary policy as well as fiscal policy" - Ken Clarke is hardly an historical figure. "Until recently" is better.
 * there's a third Chancellor these days to get confused about...
 * "summarised" rather than revealed - the Budget is distinct from the Budget Speech

Help please:
 * when does the title date from?
 * when did he switch to controlling HMT rather than the Exchequer?
 * more trivia could be of interest...

Thoughts, anyone? Gabriel Rozenberg 18:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Salary
When I was studying British government in the 1970s, the salary of the Chancellor of the Exchequer actually exceeded that of the Prime Minister. Is this still true? Where might I find a list of salaries of British government officials? Unschool 17:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Sir Kingsley Wood
Sir Kingsley died on 21 Sep, 1943. He could not be possible stepping down on 24 September. Can anyone help verifying the exact tenure of his chancellorship?--218.103.231.56 17:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Darling
We apparently only have a tiny, completely inadequate picture of Darling, but shouldn't we have one (preferably a better one) of him in this article, given that he's the current chancellor. john k 00:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Definitely agree. I put the pictures in a while ago to spruce up a dull table. There isn't the space for photos of all of them. So my idea was that the criterion for inclusion would be Chancellors who had a particularly long or pathbreaking tenure. Gladstone and Pitt are probably unarguably worthy here... Brown fits for his decade. Darling would fit too, for being the current man. I think arguably Lawson would be good as well, perhaps more so than Howe, and Snowden is arguably not so important. However in practice I ended up just sticking in photos that Wikipedia already had. Room for improvement. &para; 18:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not particularly sure of Pitt - he's significant as a prime minister, not particularly as a Chancellor. Same deal with Walpole.  Of course, the early chancellors in general aren't terrifically important.  Gladstone, definitely.  He's "the man who made the job," as Jenkins says.  Of the rest of the 19th century, I'd suggest Althorp, Disraeli, and Lord Randolph Churchill as the most clearly notable.  Lloyd George probably deserves a listing, and maybe Neville Chamberlain - he was more significant than Snowden and longer serving, at least.  Rab Butler and Denis Healey would also be plausible candidates.  At any rate, I'd suggest that Darling's picture shouldn't go in the list, but separately, somewhere near the top of the article. john k 05:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Improved list
Comments on the improved list of Chancellors:

- The new pictures are great but they are teenyweeny and perhaps some of them, eg Roy Jenkins's, could be cropped to headshots so that they work better.

- Now that Darling's pic has shrunk down perhaps the time has come to put him up at the top of the page somewhere as well, eg in place of the Treasury photo, in line with Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

- Someone has well-meaniningly added numbers to a list of Chancellors. But the idea of numbering UK politicians is a bit more contentious than it might seem. See here. The US idea that you can be, to use the main example, both 22nd and 24th President hasn't really spread to any list of UK ministers that I've seen and I think that numbering this list in the same way is peculiar: Gladstone has become Chancellor number 19, 22, 26 and 28! If there are numbers I think it should just be one per person. &para; 20:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The numbering is a total mess because it relies on value judgements that are neither universal nor commonly made, e.g. does the numbering "reset" at any time (and why 1801 rather than 1921?), do returnees count more than once (e.g. Snowden, both Chamberlains), what about when the same person is appointed in a new government (Snowden, Anderson) and so forth. The British practice to identify Chancellorships is to talk about when someone was Chancellor. Timrollpickering 06:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No numbers. They really do need to go.  Has anyone ever called Hugh Childers the "29th Chancellor of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom?"  Or, for that matter, can one find any reference in the last ten years to Brown as the "73rd chancellor of the exchequer of the United Kingdom"?  Hell, this number is, in fact, not even correct on its own terms, since Pitt was the first prime minister and chancellor after the act of union of 1801, which went into effect at the beginning of the year - Addington only came in two months later.  john k 06:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll also note the additional problem that the Lord Chief Justices who occasionally served as interim chancellor (Lord Denman may be the only one in the period where the numbering is currently being done) should perhaps not be counted. john k 06:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Tenterden as well. Timrollpickering 06:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the number of chancellors we don't have pictures for is sad - surely there must be some available photographs of Lamont, Lawson, Healey, Macleod, Lloyd, Amory, Thorneycroft, Butler, Dalton, Wood, Horne, Hicks Beach, Goschen, Childers, and Lewis? Any pictures of the last four, at least, would presumably be in the public domain at this point. john k 06:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Also some of the party labels are a bit off - Walpole a Tory?! And for some of the lesser ones I'm not sure if there are accurate or not as some Tories participated in Whig governments in the 18th century. Timrollpickering 06:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

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Numbering?
Is there any point in the numbering in the table of UK Chancellors? I fear that this may suggest that there is some official or widely-accepted numbering scheme (whereas I assume it is just something that a particular editor has decided would be worth doing). Bluewave (talk) 07:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Consensus (see above) is indeed not to number this list. Numerophiles, please leave it alone!! &para; 10:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Tory/Conservative
The table at the bottom sometimes uses Tory and sometimes Conservative - aren't they the same thing, so should be standardised? George D. Watson  (Dendodge). Talk Help 21:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It's confused because "Tory" has persisted as a nickname for the Conservatives, but in the 1830s the Conservative Party emerged from the shattered British Tory Party. The best "line in the sand" is Peel's 1834-1835 government which issued the Tamworth Manifesto. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Name
Anybody know where the name comes from? Hrcolyer (talk) 13:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

No. 11 Downing Street
The article states that No. 11 Downing Street is the official residence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but is it not instead the official residence of the Second Lord of the Treasury? --Mdebets (talk) 21:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

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Category:Chancellors of the Exchequer vs. Category:Chancellors of the Exchequer of England etc.
Categories Chancellors of the Exchequer of England, Great Britain and the United Kingdom are all three categories within Category:Chancellors of the Exchequer. — Robert Greer (talk) 16:57, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

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Extensive list changes
Lists of Chancellors has been reformatted to be a similar (but not identical) style to List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom- a featured list. Column of which Prime Minister the Chancellor served under has been changed to the Government served in, as the title of Prime Minister is somewhat anachronistic in places. A new column has been added with the monarch served under, as this is very relevant with earlier Chancellors. Another column has been added for references, as some information is slighly dubious and needs proper supporting referencing - for example Spencer Perceval was previously listed as holding office after his death.

Information on individual Chancellors has been added- titles, constituencies, honorifics

The 1221-1558 Chancellors list is still an awkward part of the page, the infobox states that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was formed in 1316 but the list contradicts by having Chancellors dating back 100 years prior. Some clarificatoin might be needed in respect of this.

Apologies if this was too extensive of an edit, however it was done in good faith to create a more visually interesting and informative table.

Thank you

ToastButterToast (talk) 13:21, 10 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Wow, good effort. I'm skeptical of some of your nomenclature for ministries - the numbering by elections is a modern innovation. Such things as Salisbury ministries up to 5 seem odd. LookLook36 (talk) 21:49, 12 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Ah, not your fault - you're following the PM list, which has recently been radically overhauled. I reckon this numbering scheme is highly problematic. LookLook36 (talk) 21:57, 12 July 2017 (UTC)


 * As you point out, the numbering was taken from the PM list. I'm kind of ambivalent to it, it's useful for modern ministries but largely pointless for pre-modern ministries in which elections didn't hold the importance they do today. That said, seeing things like 'Pitt I-IV' doesn't sit well with me. I think the column would do just as well with or without numbering for pre-modern ministries.ToastButterToast (talk) 07:07, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The so-called nomenclature of ministries is open to historical interpretation and I find it hard to see the problem here, other than aesthetically. If numbering by elections is really a modern innovation as you purport, do you have any WP:RS to confirm this? Regarding Pitt the Younger, what I find really bizarre is how one could reasonably reach the conclusion that he led only one ministry for nearly eighteen years. Four Pitt ministries seems just about right in my view; do remember that premierships &ne; ministries. Regarding Lord Salisbury, you may want to have a look at my reply at Talk:Great Stink where I made the case in regards to Lord Derby. With each general election comes a new Parliament and a new ministry, that has been the case for over a century as far as most sources are concerned. If indeed this is a modern convention, then please provide proof and I will rectify my edits accordingly. I have made a few tweaks on both lists. The nomenclature is barely problematic for most seasoned readers and the guide at List of British governments is pretty straightforward.--Nev&eacute;–selbert 19:24, 15 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't mean to be contrary, but I would appreciate if you were able to provide some of those sources on the convention on the numbering ministries? Particularly in regards to pre-20th Century governments. ToastButterToast (talk) 21:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
 * You might want to take this up with, he wrote the consensus on ministry articles.--Nev&eacute;–selbert 00:07, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

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Splitting terms of office by ministries
I noticed that recently some of the Terms of office have been split to coincide with electoral mandates/ministries. Whilst this change was surely well intended I don't think it's necessary a helpful addition for several reasons.
 * There is a lack of consistency with it, although recent Chancellors such as Philip Hammond are split into May I & II, a lot of other Chancellors aren't. Gordon Brown served continuously in all three of the Blair ministries and no such separation is made.
 * The term of office for Chancellor of the Exchequer should be regarded as continuous without break. A Chancellor's term doesn't stop and start every election or change of Prime Minister. The sources which the list cite use this convention, e.g. George Osborne served 2010–2016, as opposed to 2010–2015 and again 2015–2016. There is no basis to split the terms in the same way the President of the United States might be, and to do so may even be misleading to readers about the nature of the British constitution.
 * This is my own opinion, but I don't think it's helpful to readers. If a reader wanted to use the list as a quick reference guide it would be better to have the start and finish of their term in an easy to understand format without it being broken up. It's sufficient to know that Chancellor X served in Ministries A, B & C without giving the specific dates of those ministries. If the reader wanted to find out how long each ministry lasted, the is an easy to find link in the ministry column.
 * Finally, the question should always be asked what would a reader expect to find in a published encyclopedia or book on the issue. It seems unlikely to me that such a split would be made, and indeed in the books I own no split is made.

If no one expresses any objections, I will remove these in the next couple days. ToastButterToast (talk) 17:22, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with some of those points, but not all. You argue that the terms of office for each Chancellor should be regarded as continuous, although you forget that the Chancellor can only remain in office if he is reappointed when a new government is formed. I guess (as a compromise), the split terms could be shaded.--Nev&eacute;–selbert 21:35, 16 September 2017 (UTC)


 * That is the first source I have seen use the word reappointment, and I think you are interpreting it to be something it isn't. It isn't a formal reappointment, even the source you link mixes between the terminology for ministers being appointed and remaining in their posts. It should also be noted that source is just Spectator blog post and not necessarily a definitive or reliable source on how the Government works. The official United Kingdom government website does not split terms as seen here, neither does Parliament's Hansard online archive and although I can't link to it, 'Compendium of British Office Holders' by Timothy Venning does not split terms or list 're appointments' either. For this reason, and all the other aforementioned reasons, they should be completely removed. Shading in split terms would not be a beneficial addition and may actually make the issue worse. If you still object to this, I would suggest it may be helpful to ask for a third opinion; we very recently have had a heated debate and I don't want another one. ToastButterToast (talk) 23:05, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * To add to the last point, a Twitter press release isn't a particularly reliable source for fairly obvious reasons. ToastButterToast (talk) 00:19, 17 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I have now implemented the change on this page, as well as on the Home Secretary and Foreign Secretary pages. Please do not revert these changes unless you have a very good reason to do so, and can cite numerous authoritative and reliable sources to back your claim up. As literally no sources I can find make this split, this could plausibly be construed as WP:OR. ToastButterToast (talk) 03:07, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I shan't revert, but I will have to double-check the markup. I use an older version of Windows and rowspan often plays tricks with my browser.--Nev&eacute;–selbert 20:09, 17 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, in that case you likely aren't the only person for whom it renders unusually. What browser are you using out of interest? It might be related to that rather than the Windows OS. ToastButterToast (talk) 21:37, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

stepping stone
Given that 11 Chancellors of the Exchequer since the late-19th century have gone on to be Prime Minister, would it not be prudent to put that the Chancellorship is often seen as a stepping stone to Prime Ministerial office? 98.10.165.90 (talk) 20:25, 31 January 2018 (UTC)


 * No. Please point out if this 'convention' is stated somewhere, unfounded claims without a reliable citation cannot be useful for this article. See Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss, Blair, Wilson, Attlee, and Thatcher, they were never Chancellor of the Exchequer before becoming Prime Minister. Also I think you mean 12 Chancellors (including Sunak) now! Qwerty123M (talk) 07:09, 14 November 2023 (UTC) Qwerty123 (they/them) (talk) 04:11, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

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Anglo-Saxon Exchequer?
The claim that the Exchequer was an Anglo-Saxon development was detailed further at the main Exchequer article, stating that according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the Exchequer collected tribute for the Danes in the late 10th century. Both article cited Loyn (1984) for the claim. I don't have Loyn's text, but I do have translations of the Chronicle, and the relevant passages do not mention the Exchequer. The Dialogue of the Exchequer mentions the belief that it predated the conquest, but only for the purpose of disputing it. There seems to be confusion here between the Exchequer, which is not documented earlier than Henry I, and royal finance, which of course did precede the conquest. In particular, Loyn might have assumed out of habit that since payments were collected, the exchequer must have collected them. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 08:22, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

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