Talk:Chanson de geste

Poets? couldn't read
In the section I just reworded [], I tried to keep the meaning the same. But I'm not quite sure whether the creators or the performers are the ones that couldn't read. It would seem it would be the performer that would have a problem if they could not read - so shouldn't it be trouveres rather than poets?

Trouvères or not?
There's a basic conflict between this article and Trouvère, where it is never suggested that trouvères wrote the Chansons de geste. And, indeed, I don't remember seeing any evidence that they did. Some of the Chansons themselves are quite explicit on this point; so far as I remember, when they claim anything, they claim to belong to jongleurs, not trouvères. I might do some rewriting here -- but perhaps someone else better qualified will do it first? Andrew Dalby http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dalby/ 14:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I've now begun to rework this. The following sentence

''Another school of thought, championed by Joseph Bédier ... discounting the possibility of Germanic influence in their invention.''

is a problem to me, because I don't know who suggested Germanic influence on the chansons de geste. If anyone knows, please restore this clause and footnote it -- thanks. The following sentence seems to be a misunderstanding:

''the rhymes they contain are interspersed irregularly through the ends of each line. While not every line must rhyme, each of the rhymes in any one stanza must be the same.''

again, if someone knows better, please restore the sentence (and preferably clarify it!) Thanks for any hel bv8rqevg d d 7qwdkmvwe dcj dqw cgtadc absd inwdc wdvwdcvqd wdc  gvcgvwrqdfwxds vass  ghhit you mom w Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 20:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The one suggesting Germanic influences was Gaston Paris. About the trouvères: I'll open up a new debate. -- La Belle Aude 21:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

List of chansons de geste
I've extended the article and included a fairly long list of chansons de geste. My aim was to provide at least the approximate date of the first known version and later reworkings, but in many cases I haven't yet been able to do this; apart from that, I know the list isn't yet complete, and I may have listed a few titles in the wrong "cycle", so I'll be very happy if others have time to improve the list. Andrew Dalby 19:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Trouvères, again
Why would you say that trouvères didn't compose the Chansons de Geste? That seems very odd to me. Would anybody like to elaborate? -- La Belle Aude 21:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't believe any medieval source says that trouvères composed chansons de geste. The word seems usually to be used quite precisely in medieval sources, at least in those I have read. I think most modern authors follow the medieval terminology; hence it is usually said that trouvères composed lyric poetry, as you will see if you read the article trouvère. There is little mention of narrative genres in that article.
 * In general, if you read the chansons de geste themselves, wherever there is any mention of authorship and performance, they make the claim that chansons de geste belong to jongleurs, not trouvères. Of course, one may doubt such claims -- but I don't remember that in any chanson de geste I've looked at there is a suggestion that a trouvère is responsible.
 * A very useful survey of the evidence from chansons de geste themselves about the people who composed and performed them, and how the performances worked, is in an article by D. J. A. Ross in Traditions of heroic and epic poetry ed. A. T. Hatto, J. B. Hainsworth (London: Modern Humanities Research Association, 1980-89). I think it was in vol. 1 but I don't have the precise reference any more. J. J. Duggan has been studying the social context of chansons de geste -- see his "Le mode de composition des chansons de geste" in \Olifant\ vol. 8 (1980/81) pp. 286-316; "Social functions of the medieval epic in the Romance literatures" in \Oral tradition\ vol. 1 (1986) pp. 728-766; other work by him too.
 * Any use? And rew D alby  22:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not an expert on chansons de geste in particular, but considering the nature of medieval literature in general, I think we should be careful to attribute "authorship" to specific individuals, or even groups. These texts were transmitted orally for a long time before they were first written down, and so didn't have any author. The performers didn't "invent" the stories, they just told them in their own way.
 * And even after they were written down, the authorship probably continued to be "collective". We mustn't think of "authors" in the modern sense of the word. Even if a text has a specific "author's" name on it, that was just the person responsible for writing down that particular copy of the story.
 * I recommend Mary Carruthers: The Book of Memory and The Craft of Thought for anyone interested in the nature of medieval authorship. --dllu 14:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Concerning Troubadours (trouvères), jongleurs and authorship, the debate about the composition of the chansons se geste and their performance remains insoluble. Refer to: Rychner, Jean. La Chanson de Geste: Essai sur l'Art Épique des Jongleurs. Edited by Mario Roques. Vol. LIII, Société de Publications Romanes et Françaises. Geneva: Librairie E. Droz, 1955; and Delbouille, Maurice. "Les chansons de geste et le livre." In La technique littéraire des chansons de geste: Actes du Colloque de Liège Septembre 1957, 295-407. Paris: Société d'Édition Les Belles Lettres, 1959. The theory of authorship in the Middle Ages must be seen in entirely different perspective than that of today in which we have precise boundaries and labels like 'intellectual property,' 'copyright' and 'plagiarism.' Even the idea of history was arbitrary and accuracy was not important in the term that it is today, so the assertion that the chansons de geste were either written, composed or read by either jongleurs or troubadours, or even poets, must be made with caution. For an overview of thedifferences between jongleurs, troubadours and their performances/composition, I recommend: �Lafitte-Houssat, Jacques. Troubadours et cours d'amour. 1st ed. Vol. 422, Que sais-je? Paris: Presses Universitaires de France, 1950. Certainly more recent volumes and studies have been undertaken, but communis opinio seems to be that there was a general ambiguity of authorship and genre, that can even be traced across the Rhine.Peaky beaky (talk) 03:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Basics
The main body of this article contains virtually no inline citations, making sources unclear and impossible to distinguish from individual opinions and original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.197.84 (talk) 00:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Origins
When someone gets a chance, this article could really use a brief section on the disputed topic of origins (Gaston Paris, J. Bédier, F. Lot, etc.) and on the dating of the oldest chansons. Thanks! NYArtsnWords (talk) 23:03, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Update: I added a section on origins. Let me know if there are problems. NYArtsnWords (talk) 07:42, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Requested move



 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.


 * The result of the discussion was moved.  Ged  UK  12:37, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Chansons de geste → Chanson de geste – Requesting a reversal of the move of Chanson de geste to Chansons de geste made on 13 September 2013. 1. Per article title naming conventions, use of the singular form is preferred (WP:SINGULAR). In medieval literary studies, a "chanson de geste" is a genre (like Novel, Short story, Lai, Fabliau, Saga, etc.) defined by its subject matter and poetic form, and like "novel", "saga", "lai", "fabliau", etc. the word "chanson" should be in the singular. The term does not refer to a compilation or collection of tales (in the manner of "Homeric poems" or "Aesop's Fables"). The interlanguage pages on the German, Spanish, French, Occitan, etc. wikipedias also use the singular. Published critical work in the field treats the "chanson de geste" as a genre; for example: "The Chanson de Roland... is one of the finest examples of the genre." (David Coward, A History of French literature: From 'Chanson de geste' to Cinema, Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2002, 2004, p.8. ISBN 1-4051-1736-2). 2. The controversial move was made without prior discussion or a request for move. NYArtsnWords (talk) 18:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. I am the one who recently renamed this page to the plural form. And I am so sorry if I was wrong not to first raise discussion; I thought this would be an uncontroversial change.  My rationale is that if this is indeed an article about a "genre", then it should not begin by misleading readers.  This article's lead begins by stating that the chansons (plural) de geste are "songs of..." (also plural).  An article about a genre, which would correctly be in singular form, would frequently refer to the genre, and especially in the lead.  This article does not.  It does refer to the "genre" but never actually names it in singular form.  The singular form is used only to denote single songs.  Also, I am not fully convinced that all these poems are actually of one true genre.  There seems to me to be enough diversity in the songs to possibly warrant some of them being sorted into a different genre, maybe more than one different genre?  It may very well be a distortion of the meaning of the term "genre" to sort all of these songs into just one.  I am well aware that I could be wrong, so I await the thoughts of others and will happily yield to the consensus. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 19:05, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * PS. The actual beginnings of this move request can be found in a brief, civil discussion in case anyone may be interested. (PS added by –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX !)
 * PPS. Also, it should be noted that if "Chanson de geste" is indeed a genre, then it should not be in italics either in the title or in running text, any more than "Novel" or "Fabliau" are.  When a single poem is referred to, it should be in quotation marks, as in "Chanson de Roland"; please note that such article titles should not be in italics. (PPS added by –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX !)


 * Weak support: If you look at other genres (i.e. Horror film) they tend to be singular, but I don't believe it to be a particularly grave problem. I don't think there would be a problem referring to them in the plural in the first line of the text of the article though. Brigade Piron (talk) 12:40, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support/restore both on procedural grounds (per WP:BRD this could have been a technical restore) and secondly also on grounds of sources identifying specific poems as a (singular) chanson de geste is common if not universal, such as the Chancun de Guillaume and so on. Sorry Paine E, but it was a rather odd move. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see that now, In ictu oculi, but whatever damage I've done is reversible. If the procedural grounds (which I agree with) were not an issue, then you are left with your second reason, which I'm not sure I understand.  I've searched for hours on the web, agonizing over this page move, and I have never found this group of songs specifically referred to as a genre named "Chanson de geste".  As you say, only individual poems are referred to in the singular, and whenever I've seen them discussed together, they are always called "chansons de geste".  I've asked for a source that specifically calls this genre "Chanson de geste" and, thus far, nobody has found one.  So I haven't been convinced that this was not a good move. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 17:47, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * PS. Even the source given by NYArtsnWords above is, to me, questionable. Does the title refer to "from a genre to a film? or does it mean from a song to a film?  Nothing about this seems very clear. (PS added by –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX !)


 * Support. The New Oxford Companion to Literature in French has an article titled "Chanson de geste" which begins, "Major medieval French narrative genre. . ." Srnec (talk) 22:13, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Srnec, that was the reference for which I've searched. Here at this link on page 147 is the phrase you mentioned. The author, Peter France, seems to be a recognized authority, so I shall move this page back to status quo posthaste. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 23:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Nuclear codes?!
Not an expert, but I'd guess thus whole paragraph is a joke:

"Another theory is that it was written down shortly after the events occurred but kept within the family by descendants of Charlemagne in France, as it is statistically probably easier to get the nuclear codes from every country with nukes than it is to get some of Charlemagne’s descendants to willingly share their books much less to ever get them to shut up from singing." BjornVDM (talk) 08:03, 13 March 2021 (UTC)