Talk:Characters in The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge this and TWW's character article?
Since it's kind of a series - both games feature the same Link, and PH has few major characters that aren't also from TWW. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? Only the pirates and Link are shared characters (at least, confirmed). There are cameos (Salvatore and Beedle), but it's unclear if these are truly the same characters, or just the cameos the series loves to do.
 * That's all that really matters - we treat Link, Zelda, and Ganon as the same characters. It's been established that there are multiple Beedles, and on them anyway, they aren't even major characters. The only major characters that aren't from The Wind Waker are Linebeck, Ciela, Oshu, and Bellum. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And Jolene, and Old Wayfarer, and Biggoron/Gongoron, and the other secondary characters. Honestly, MM would be better merged with Ocarina first - at least there it actually IS the "same" characters. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 14:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Who cares about secondary characters? There are few characters of worth in Zelda PH besides the main ones. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, then why not just merge all of the character articles? They all, more or less, have Link, Zelda, and Ganon in them.
 * I'm not sure I really understand your reasoning - the only characters the two games share are Link and Tetra's group. Every other character - i.e., the one's actually covered in this article or TWW's, only appears in one game or the other as a unique character. Merging the articles would just make them highly confusing, as it would be switching back and forth about the character's setting in each section. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 01:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

So let me ask - what's better, an article about the characters in the "Wind Waker series" with most of the major characters in the two games, or PH's list of characters being merged into PH's article, and losing everyone but the most major characters (Link, Tetra, Linebeck, Bellum, Oshu, Ciela, Jolene)? - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The way you were describing it earlier, that's going to happen either way, and with the way the FTC push seems to be going, the TWW character article would be gutted as well. I honestly don't see any point in merging them, even to "save" them. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Making one article for both serves to save more content. If it gets merged to PH, less content. If it gets merged to TWW's character page, more content. It's going to probably disappear no matter what - it's just a question of how much you want to spare. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * How? If both character articles are going to be merged into the parent article, they're just going to throw out the PH characters when they merge the TWW characters to the game article. If the PH char article is going to be merged to the PH article, the TWW char article is almost certainly going to suffer the same fate.
 * There's no more reason to merge it to the TWW char article than anywhere else - the only common characters (Link and Tetra) aren't even actually covered on either article. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Combining both of their notability makes them both notable. Haven't you ever heard the old saying, "weak separately, strong together"? If it covered multiple games, it wouldn't get merged. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * How? They both cover essentially separate topics, and neither have any assertions of notability at all, as of now. Any assertion based on development or reception would be disparate as well, seeing as the games are separated by five years.
 * If it was something like OoT or MM, or ALttP and LA, where the characters from one game are at least based directly on the others, I would agree with you. But the only link between the two character articles is that the games are technically sequels. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 05:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Factually, not technically, this is a sequel. It is stated to directly follow TWW, uses the same two main characters as well as several minor characters from TWW, brings back several TWW characters such as Beedle and Salvatore. PH did not have a significant amount of major characters, characters that are important throughout the plot. A characters in the "Wind Waker series" article makes them more notable as a whole - it's simple logic. If you combine two articles, both articles' notability remains, meaning it's more notable than before. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Beedle, Salvatore, and the Ho Hos are the only characters that come back, and all are indicated to simply be other members of the character's clan, or whatever the situation is - they are basically just Nurse Joys. No characters significant to TWW reappear in PH, and vice versa.
 * Yes, factually it is a sequel. However, it shares almost no characters or plot, and no setting. PH did have major characters (Oshus, Linebeck, Ciela, Jolene, along with Astrid, Old Wayfarer, Gongoron, and Zauz). Your argument about notability basically amounts to something like "combining the article on cats and the article on circumcision would have notability that is the sum of the notability of the parent articles"; there is nowhere near enough shared topic, if any, for them to be linked by topic, and any real-world info would be separated by 5 years, and mostly un-integrate-able.
 * 0+0 still = 0. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 06:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * So basically, merging two related subjects is the same as merging two unrelated subjects? I see. - A Link to the Past (talk) 16:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If the TWW and PH char articles were related any more to each other than to any other Zelda char article, yes, I would be wrong. They're not. They share no coverage, and no possible real-world info besides "Cel-shaded, and set on an oceanic landscape" - which would be game info, not character design info. The cel-shaded bit, possibly - but that would also apply to the designs for all the Four Sword games.
 * The TWW and PH char articles are not related. It would be completely impossible to actually integrate any of the info from one into the other, and I still don't see how merging would actually make these articles more notable - this article only has "notability" as a sub-article of Phantom Hourglass, being "split off for length". Changing the nature of that arrangement would remove that argument for notability, and there's no real reason why such a change would stop the merge-proponents from doing the same thing to the "new TWW char" article as they would to this article.
 * Honestly, I would rather see the major characters from this article on the PH page, rather than the TWW char page. If it has to be merged somewhere, it would fit much better and make much more sense there. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 19:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This list does the "merging of characters lists" well. Salvatore, Beedle, Link, Tetra, the Ho-hos, and her Pirates are all cross-game characters. It would hardly require any effort to make the two lists merge well. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Having just completed Phantom Hourglass, this actually make a lot of sense, because you can chronicle what happens with the recurring characters in one place and then have a little section for characters that only appeared in one game or the other. It would be really easy to put together and not much information need be lost. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 15:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * ....what "recurring" characters? The only characters who make appearances in both games are Link, who is never covered in the character articles, Tetra, who is the same, and Tetra's pirates, who appear for about five seconds and have no part in anything. At most, the recurring section would be "Tetra's pirates are also seen at the beginning of Phantom Hourglass". Beedle, Salvatore, and the HoHos, the only things near the kind of recurring character's you're talking about, are in fact in the same mold as the various Dampe's or Mutoh's. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 16:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Phantom Hourglass is a direct follow-up to WW, and is arguably the only direct sequel game in the series to actually continue the events of the previous game. Fact of the matter is that merging the two lists works to make the whole more notable, rather than two less notable lists. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * ...no. Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening are the only direct sequels to actually follow such events. Phantom Hourglass has no relation to the earlier game, not even characters (besides the pirates and Tetra, both of which are more props than anything) or items, which Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening do.
 * Again, you have yet to explain how either of these articles currently assert any notability besides "inherited" - and merging the articles would logically deny that claim as you would be creating a new synthesis which would need to prove its own notability. For all intents and purposes, you're argument would work as well for any other two combinations of the games, or even something as absurd as Cat and Circumcision; as explained earlier, there is no shared info - neither article covers Tetra, and the pirates aren't mentioned in this article at all. It would be merging for the sake of merging; not for eased navigation, not for integration of character info - simply for the sake of merging. If that's the only goal, and minor characters are going to be scrapped anyway - go ahead and let this article be merged to the PH article. The main characters would still get their 20-minutes on that article, anyway. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * We can't even prove LA is connected to LttP at all, and it somehow has more significant connection than PH, which so happens to connect itself to TWW constantly?
 * LA is about Link going on a journey after defeating Ganon. No events in any game caused him to HAVE to go on this journey. It's a different story entirely.
 * MM is about Link searching for Navi. That's the only connection besides Link, Epona, and Skull Kid themselves.
 * And PH? It directly references the events of TWW, and is about "searching for a new Hyrule", which is the last thing we see in TWW - Link and Tetra's pirates searching for Hyrule. The events of PH exist because of a plot introduced in TWW - PH began where TWW left off. The fact that it went to a different plot is hardly relevant. MM's plot's connection is based on a minor occurance (Navi leaving), which didn't effect the game. PH is about the main plot of TWW, the main plot that was created after the then-main plot had been completed. And LA isn't even known as to which game it follows, and that point is irrelevant, since the plot happened for no other reason than to "get stronger".
 * So, basically, two plots which are indisputably directly connected are the same as two topics of complete irrelevance. I'd love to see anything that proves two directly connected games as disconnected from each other.
 * Also, why would Tetra be covered at PH? It would be covered at Zelda. There have been three games that follow the exact same characters - ie, Zelda, Link, and the Pirates. While one game, Tetra's Trackers (sub-game of FSA) is a mini-game, it establishes notability for these characters. Since these characters span multiple games, the idea of an article for these series characters and the lesser characters of both games asserts more notability than OoT's. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * LA is about Link going to train after defeating Ganon, in order to better protect Hyrule (as much a mission as finding a new Hyrule in PH). Many, many enemies and several characters reappear in LA, and the map even has the same basic layout.
 * MM directly references events from the first game, has shared characters with significant plot time and import (like Epona, Skull Kid, and to some extent, Zelda), and nearly all characters are references to earlier characters. Don't try to weasel out of that one - the game is the closest linked game so far, and it is absurd to claim PH is more so.
 * PH, like the other games, does reference the end of it's prequel - and then does no more with it. There is no mention of finding a new Hyrule at any other point of the game besides the prologue, and no mention of the previous boss - meanwhile Ganon and several of the ALttP bosses reappear in LA, and in MM, Ganondorf's mothers appear and are important to the plot.
 * "I'd love to see anything that proves two directly connected games as disconnected from each other."
 * And I'd love to see anything showing how either of these articles have any independent notability, or could at all be integrated - so far, your best suggestion is to merely alphabetize them, or have a "TWW" and "PH" character section - meaning, merging for merging's sake, and not for any true organizational or informative reason. That is specifically why I disagree with the proposed merge target.
 * "Also, why would Tetra be covered at PH?"
 * Exactly! Why does this claim that the two articles cover the same general topic keep popping up, specifically about the pirates, link, and tetra, when two of those have no info on either page, and one only appears on the first page?
 * If this article must be merged at all, the only appropriate target is the Phantom Hourglass article; there is simply no shared coverage between the articles, and no greater reason to merge them than for any two arbitrary character articles from the series. You have presented nothing more than "PH is called a sequel to TWW" - even though nothing covered in the first game is important to the second, besides "We are on the sea" and "We started on a pirate ship" - and plenty of games, like FSA and ALttP for example, share a greater number of characters and locations. Should these also be merged? What about OoS and TLoZ? OoS was originally a remake of TLoZ, and still shares many of the same elements. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I dunno, the fact that the events of PH were solely defined by the events of TWW makes it far more of a direct sequel than LA (I can't say I like the idea of PH being less of a sequel than a game whose predecessor is unknown). Ganondorf's DEATH is stated as being a cause of an increase in evil in PH. This is not stated in-game, but by Aonuma himself. In MM, the death of Ganondorf was entirely inconsequential to its plot. TWW HAS to exist for PH to happen. The ending of TWW, the major point of the ending, is the sole reason PH exists in the first place. MM's connection to OoT is never directly stated in-game - it's painfully obvious, but they never reference the events of OoT, ever. Same with LA - no game is referenced in that. However, not only was PH announced and described as a sequel to the Wind Waker (make note that MM was announced as Zelda Gaiden - literally Zelda Sidestory), it makes sure that everyone knows what it's a follow-up to.
 * Officially, MM is a sidestory. LA is a sidestory. PH is a sequel. And as we can see, precedence: A two-game series. Most of the list is of characters in both games, but characters such as Chaos from Aria of Sorrow are not present, despite being quite similar to Bellum. If the exact same concept can be a featured topic, then I hardly see a problem here.
 * I think you're taking this proposal too seriously. This is not a big deal. It creates one article where people can conveniently see all the content related to the connected plots. In all intents and purposes, the Sorrow series is only related based on the Dracula revival concept. It may be a prominent part of the plot, but characters such as Graham and Dario are not characters who can say that they span the series. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, so let me get this straight -
 * LA contains several characters from ALttP, and at the time of its release, it was said to be a sequel to ALttP. It contains a virtually identical map, as well. Ganon himself appears in LA. The trip also "could not have happened" but for the events of ALttP.
 * MM contains virtually only characters from OoT, directly references OoT in the manual, and the main villain is directly from the previous game. The whole "searching for Navi" couldn't have happened without Ganondorf being a problem, and then being defeated.
 * PH's events start a good time before TWW's ending, according to various details, and at most, the evil influence is solely Ganondorf being around - not the events of TWW, but technically, before it. Even that is only mentioned in an interview.
 * Where is it officially said that LA is a sidestory? I know that there are claims that MM started out as a Gaiden, but I've never heard that from LA, and I can't see how PH would be any less of one - like other games considered "Gaiden"s, it's not set in Hyrule, and it's events have little to no bearing on the overarching story of the series.


 * "In all intents and purposes, the Sorrow series is only related based on the Dracula revival concept. It may be a prominent part of the plot, but characters such as Graham and Dario are not characters who can say that they span the series."
 * This. This right here. This is my entire argument - there are no characters that span "the series" of these two games, and would actually be covered in these articles. Salvatore and Beedle are blatantly said to be different people with the same name - at most, we could put them on the recurring characters article. Tetra and Link are not covered by these articles anyway, and never really are on the character articles. The most, the most, possible shared coverage is the pirates - who hardly appear in TWW as it is, and are even less important in PH - they may be in both games, but they are so completely minor that they would not be mentioned at all.
 * So there would be no synthesis to the articles. There would be no "recurring" section, as none of the characters we cover on any zelda char article actually do reoccur, or are important in any way.


 * "It creates one article where people can conveniently see all the content related to the connected plots."
 * First off - there is no connection to the plots. The most we have is Aonuma's assertion that the evil on the PH Great Sea has increased due to Ganondorf's return, and that the reason that Tetra (a lifelong pirate, who is always sailing) is in this part of the sea is to search for a new land.
 * But hang on a minute - that's not what it says at the beginning of PH, and that plot point is never touched on in the game. It says they are exploring the mystery of the Ghost Ship. Not searching for a new land. They are, as the pirates they are, looking for treasure.
 * Second off - if the point of this merger is to create one article out of two, then why not the PH page? It would reduce duplication of information, whereas no proposal so far for the TWW-PH merge would be anything but a copy-paste or a deletion. There is simply no shared coverage.


 * If you absolutely, absolutely, want to merge the two articles that badly - do it as user sandbox first. You have yet to give any solid reason why merging these articles would enhance understanding. It would be unlike all the other merged character articles in the project, and it would essentially just be the one article, then the second. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 21:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh? I JUST had a discussion about LA and LttP's connection. What, you have this magic connection that no one else could find, where it says that the events of ALttP predated LA? And may I ask what your speculation has to do with this?
 * Oh really? I didn't realize that the Romanis were in OoT, that Anju & Kafei were, that Sakon was, that Darmani was, that Mikau was, etc. It is an alternate universe. It has a connection, but it is never flat-out stated in-game.
 * Um. No? Aonuma said that "Ganondorf will not be in PH, but his evil still has power", loosely quoted. Either he is lying or you're wrong.
 * You can't even give a single piece of proof as to what LA is a sequel to, and you insist it is despite that? By sheer definition, LA is a sidestory. It is a story that is disconnected from the series. It is about Link going to get stronger. It is not as if Link went out searching for the secret to destroy Ganon for the rest of time, he went to get stronger. Phantom Hourglass begins with Link searching for a new land, and ends with Link continuing that search. It is essentially a different plot jumping in the middle of the primary plot.
 * Majora's Mask WAS a Gaiden and still is. Nothing significant changed in the plot.
 * It doesn't matter. Beedle and Salvatore and the Ho-Hos are still pretty much TWW/PH characters. Putting two lists on two articles would make the articles too long.
 * I showed that a "two game series" in the same situation became featured, showing that there's no problem with the merge happening.
 * If that were true, it would also be true to say that the Oracle games merging is just two articles in one.
 * Perhaps it'd be best to delete the two articles? - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Nintendo (July 1993), "Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening", Nintendo Power. 56, as cited in the Link's Awakening article.
 * Romani and Cremia are as Malon, Anju is, Sakon is, Darmani is as Darunia.
 * ....that the evil influence stemmed from him being around. His death did nothing to change the situation with the Ocean King, as you claimed. His words are actually closer to what I was saying, not your claim that it was because of his death. Even then, that quote was early on, and the game shows no connection between Bellum and Ganondorf in itself.
 * It is specifically said that he went to learn to better protect Hyrule.
 * PH only mentions the new lands point at this bit:
 * "Later, the two set out with the brave pirate crew in search of new lands...Yes, they set sail together! A happy pirate ending!"
 * and
 * "I'm traveling the world in search of new lands."
 * Again in the prologue only. Immediately afterwards, they reveal that the reason they are where they are is to expose the Ghost Ship as phony pirates, and take their treasure. At the end of the game, the other pirates are concerned about the Ghost Ship having treasure There is no mention at the end of the game of that search, as you claim. In fact, they are preparing to chase the Ghost Ship, asking Link to man the cannon.
 * Except that characters from one actually appear in the other, and frequently at that, that the plot of one is frequently mentioned in the other, and that the games are nearly impossible to discuss separately.
 * If it's so bad to simply merge the major characters of this article with the PH page, then fine, go ahead and delete this page. It's going to be merged or deleted one way or another, so if it's so important to start throwing tantrums about it, go ahead.
 * Also, as quoted from the talk page: "In addition to this, it mentions that the Ganon in this Link's past quest was reduced to ashes. There were only two games in which Ganon was reduced to ashes in the end; LttP and the original LoZ." Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 00:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)