Talk:Characters of the Final Fantasy VII series/Archive 2

Talk Page Archived
The previous version of the Final Fantasy VII Characters talk page has been archived in order to shadow the new format of the article. Please feel free to raise any issues you may have with the article before editing the article vastly.Gavin Scott 01:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Order of Main Characters
As discussed in the previous version of the talk page the order was set in the order a character joins the party, and in the case of optional characters in the order you can gain them, this is fairly controversial it seems and as such discussion on it will no doubt resurface. The argument itself seemed to stem from whether Areith or Tifa was the cheif-heroine which by the game itself is largely up to the player. As such we have put the characters in order of joining the party, but should we reach an agreement on who should be placed where then I won't personally object to that and will support the decission we make.Gavin Scott 01:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Should Article Be Reformatted?
Scanning through the article again I noiticed that the section "main playable characters" only includes playable characters from the original FFVII. As no distinction is made between FFVII and its spin-offs it would seem correct that all characters who can be played should be in the main playable section. However I doubt anyone will be in favour of this, thus perhaps the page should make more distinction about what part of the Compilation it is refering too. For example in the Crisis Core section you might expect it to have a sub-section of main-playable characters and then other main characters and so on.Gavin Scott 01:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Zack and Aeriths' Relationship
This was something originally noted by some users on the Japanese message board 2ch, but there seems to be some differences in the way their relationship is presented in the Japanese and English versions. Some things, like when they first meet, in the English version, Aerith calls Zack her first boyfriend, however in the Japanese version, she calls him her first crush. There also seems to be a bit of confusion as to just how long they were in a relationship, and whether or not they were actually "dating", since they apparantly only go on the one date together. However, there are some indications that Zack may have considered her his girlfriend for as much as two years. I edited the article slightly to something a bit more amibiguous. I don't have the means or sources to research it personally, but perhaps it's something that can be looked into and clarified (or perhaps a wait and see approach should be taken, with Crisis Core looming on the horizon, and the possibilities of clarifications and/or retcons). WtW-Suzaku 20:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Bugenhagen
His fate has still not been proven/disproven by anyone. It cannot just be stated that he is dead when the narritive never shows this in the actual game. Is it not in the Ultimania? (138.253.205.70 16:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)) If no one remembers, when Nanaki gets his best Weapon, the "Limited Moon" he says,"Grandfather gave me this he said he is going on a trip to see the planet" or somthing to that effect but some speculate that it may have been figuritive.

Character merges
I feel a significant number of articles need to be merged into this list, despite their minor appearences in the other compilation pages. They do not have enough out of universe attribution to stand on their own as articles: The page is really looking good, though; it just needs a lot of in-universe information merged. &mdash; Deckiller 20:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * AVALANCHE &mdash; the organization and its members can be summed up in a couple paragraphs
 * Zack Fair &mdash; not a massively significant character. I see zero information about development, popularity, influence, etc.
 * Lucrecia Crescent &mdash; again, a minor character only apart of backstory
 * Professor Hojo &mdash; a fairly significant antagonist, but mostly in the context of other characters


 * Merged all these characters-begin work on DoC tomorrow.Gavin Scott 23:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Minor character bullet list?
Is it really necessary to have a bulleted list of all the named minor characters in the game? For example, the Characters of Final Fantasy VIII article hardly lists minor characters, except for a few prominant SeeD and other recurring minors. If that section can be chopped, that leaves much more room for more merges and less time needed referencing. &mdash; Deckiller 00:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, there are certian characters listed who have no part in the story what so ever! For example, Cloud's Father, Elder Bugah, Elder Hargo and on and on. I shall dedicate some attention to this list next.Gavin Scott 21:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Awesome. Also, I'll start working on development and criticism sections when I have the chance; if I don't, then I'll point you to some good sources if you need them. &mdash; Deckiller 21:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That would be great, also if you could have a wee look at how the article is formatted. I can't help but feel as I get to say the Shinra characters section it's just too messy...but that may just be me, your feedback would be useful. Thanks. Gavin Scott 21:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Eventually, when we have the Gaia (Final Fantasy VII) article, it will have most of the FF7 articles merged into it (hopefully including Shinra). Then, we can just move all the character bios to this page. That'll help with the formatting. &mdash; Deckiller 21:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Good to hear, I have had a look at the Characters of Final Fantasy VIII article, and there is alot of changes which will need to be carried out on this article so that it reaches the same standard. After that I'll move down to FFVI, then V and so on hopefully improving all articles to GA. However, this article will take a little work, and it will be fairly controversial. Gavin Scott 22:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I may sound impatient, but methinks works on Characters of Final Fantasy VIII has stalled due to a stall at Good article candidates. Once it reaches GA status, we're going to aim for FAC hopefully. By the way, I started the reorganization. &mdash; Deckiller 22:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes I did noitice some of your changes, I have merged the Dirge of Cerberus article with this one also. I am going to deleate some of the minor characters just now, to be honest, I have no idea why certain ones are there. Haha. Gavin Scott 22:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Zack has a last name?
I don't ever remember hearing he has a last name...--24.109.218.172 00:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It was revealed in Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII, Tetsuya Normura said the name is supposed to be an allusion to "fair weather", to work as a pun with "Cloud" (inclement or stormy weather). Neat, huh? Nall 01:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Neat-o. Is it just me or does Tetsuya Nomura use alot of weather-related names for his characters? "Squall" Leonhart, "Cloud" Strife, and even in the upcoming Final Fantasy XIII, as the main character's name is "Lightning"!
 * See Common themes of Final Fantasy: yes, he uses a lot of weather names. --&mdash; Δαίδαλος  Σ  23:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Time to merge
Like what has happened with other FFs, it's time to merge all characters into this article. Mrmoocow 06:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It might be difficult to do so with FF7, because of all the (pointless, ridiculous, and absolutely sickening) spin-offs making up the so-called "compilation of Final Fantasy VII" giving the characters with more to talk about. Ideally, I'd like to see all these poorly developed and cliche characters in one article myself, but it might end up making the page quite long, sadly. Yes, I dislike FF7 :)

The articles I think can be merged into this list are Shinra (characters), the Turks, Jenova, and pretty much all but the playable characters and Sephiroth. &mdash; Deckiller 00:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I dislike FF7 too... well, not really. It's not my favourite FF, I much prefer FFIX and FFVI. But it is better than FFVIII... anyway, I see where you're coming from. However, the way to do it is strip off all redundant, unneccessary, or just downright removable information from each of the characters, and once small enough, merge. Mrmoocow 06:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What I mean is, do it with ALL THE CHARACTERS INCLUDING SEPHIROTH AND THE PLAYABLES. It's what they've done with most of the other FFs; why not 7? Mrmoocow 00:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Some of those Compilation of FFVII characters can probably either be removed or just mentioned once in their respective game's articles in the Plot and setting>Characters section. Kariteh 07:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean my Shinra(Characters)?Gavin Scott 16:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The character section of the Shinra article. The rest of the article can probably be merged into a World of Final Fantasy VII article that would encompass Materia, Midgar, Timeline, Terms, etc. &mdash; Deckiller 20:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes that seems reasonable, I would love to help more as I said I would but Im really pressed for time and any large scale additions I made would not be up to standard, I will however, merge Shinra when I can. Gavin Scott 20:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Heidegger's name origin
The article says he was "possibly named after the German philosopher Martin Heidegger (1889-1976), or after the protagonist of the same name in Nathaniel Hawthorne's short story "Dr. Heidegger's Experiment". Wouldn't it make sense for it to be the former rather than the latter? Martin Heidegger apparantly became a member of the Nazi party popular during part of his lifetime, so that association to fascism sounds more likely than an old doctor who obtains water from the fountain of youth. (Source: .) The FF Heidegger's weight insecurity could be a tenuous link to that whole "age" thing, however...

In any case, does anyone have more info on this? He's a minor character but they might have mentioned it in an interview or the Ultimania guide. Kennard2 00:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

sephiroth's remnants
Ugh... the article correctly states they are remnants of Sephiroth and it lists which part of Sephiroth they are each associated with... but under Kadaj it says they are all Sephiroth clones made by Hojo. There is absolutely no evidence of that. They are NOT Sephiroth copies though. The clones/copies are nearly mindless and numbered. The SHM are not. They'd have to have been failures like Cloud, but the existence of more failures seems like it would have been mentioned in FF7 had there been any. And with Hojo dead, he could not have made more clones. They are 'shinentai'. "It is most commonly used to identify spirits that manifest a physical form to remain in the world. These normally do have a strong will to finish unfinished business." The use of that term in the Japanese seems to also dispell the 'clone' idea. I'm thinking the comment near the end of Kadaj's little description may have been merely overlooked by whoever added their information to this article. I'm going to remove that line. It said "cloe" instead of "clone" anyways so it will get rid of that spelling error as well. Please do not add back that line without some sort of evidence. 71.120.201.39 15:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

LOL Kurokaze 89 appears to have removed that line as I was typing my rant here... so sorry about that. 71.120.201.39 15:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Scarlet.JPG
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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 21:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

cleanup
Hay everyone I am cleaning up the articles a little. If you dispute any edits, please help me out! --Rebent 20:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * it needs some serious cleanup! all this sexual innuendo graffiti for example...Spacelion 00:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be simple vandalism, not legitimate content. Axem Titanium 00:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Why no article for Barret
A;; of the mains have seperate articles except for Barret. Whats up with that?

--Vehgah 19:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

We are merging them all, slowly but surely. It would be nice if more people helped actaully. Gavin Scott 21:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Are we? We shouldn't merge them all; some fit the criteria for a separate article (appearances in several diverse games). Kariteh 08:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Your right yes, Barret was easy to merge as his article was fairly small, others will have to maintain a lone article...for now. However, Cait Sith is next in line I think. I may also rethink the Barret section, it could do with abit more info. Hopefully everyone will jump in. Gavin Scott 08:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * How about a Recurring characters of Final Fantasy VII article for Cloud, Aerith, Sephiroth, etc.? These characters appear in multiple games, but it's always the same games (Ehrgeiz, KH series, CoFFVII series) so perhaps their creation/reception sections could be merged seemlessly. Kariteh 09:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I do think that we have to change the format of these articles in someway. We should remove, Main Playable Characters from this article at any rate, as Zack has his own game comming out soon as do the Turks. Perhaps we should look at how we organize this article as it doesn't just serve the PS1 game but the entire Compilation. I would think the sections could be. And so on and on, or perhaps they should be split into Protagonists, Antagonists and Minor Characters, Its difficult, but it needs to be changed. However, we will be best to merge what we can first then settle on how we are going to sort out the article. Gavin Scott 10:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Central Characters
 * Cloud
 * Aerith
 * Vincent
 * Zack
 * Secondary Characters
 * Tifa
 * Barret
 * Red VIII
 * Cait Sith
 * Cid
 * Yuffie
 * Rufus
 * Sephiroth
 * Kaddaj
 * Hojo
 * Jenova
 * Minor Characters

WP:FICT will probably allow Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, Sephiroth, Vincent, and maybe Zack to have their own articles; there's probably significant real-world info available about these chars (this being FF7 and all). Check out reader polls, interviews, that flaregamer source, reviews, etc. &mdash; Deckiller 14:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But that doesn't solve this page's problem: it's currently 58kb long. If the Creation and Reception sections get completed and the remaining minor character articles get merged, this page will probably be longer than the Characters of FFXII article; i.e. longer than 80kb. That's very long. Kariteh 17:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Characters of FFVIII is 70kb and the main FFVII article is almost 100kb. This article wouldn't be too bad, relatively speaking. Axem Titanium 19:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well the FFVII article is precisely too long. The Setting section is more encyclopedic and detailed than its "main article" Gaia (Final Fantasy VII); the Story section should reportedly be reduced by 75% to comply with consensus and guidelines; the Development section is also quite long even though it's not complete given the missing informations about Sakaguchi's original story draft, and the pre-release demo; and the Compilation of FFVII section could probably be a separate full-blown Featured Article if it were split into its own article. Kariteh 12:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we have to decide if this article will be just for the Characters of Final Fantasy VII. Or for the Characters of the Final Fantasy VII Compilation. Gavin Scott 13:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think it should encompass the entire compilation except for characters specific to non-FF7 parts; for instance, entries on Barret and whatnot will outline their role in the entire compilation, but the individual media pages will outline the characters specific to each media. That might have sounded confusing; it's still early, sorry. &mdash; Deckiller 13:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So, doesn't this lead us to the same thing that was proposed above: a Characters of Final Fantasy VII and a Characters of Compilation of Final Fantasy VII articles? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kariteh (talk • contribs).
 * I don't think segregating the characters into "regular" and "recurring" would be especially helpful. The only concern is size and that is only a general guideline since the "internet speed" argument is practically moot now. Axem Titanium 14:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Characters of FFVII vs. Characters of Compilation of FFVII is the most logical separation because of the Development and Reception sections. The original FFVII characters have the same general subjects to write about (created in 1997 for FFVII, have reappeared in Erhgeiz, KH series, and CoFFVII, etc.; they're also the most popular in GameFAQs polls and whatnot). The Compilation of FFVII characters have different subjects to write about than the original characters, since they were all created after 2003 and have had a different reception than the original characters. It's a coherent separation. Kariteh 14:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if that equals a pressing need to split the article. At any rate, this won't be terribly important until someone decides to finally clean up the article. We should first see what it looks like combined before deciding whether it needs to be split. Axem Titanium 00:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but according to your list, how is Vincent a main character, but Tifa, Red XIII, And especially Sephiroth aren't? Vincent and Yuffie are secret characters. Plus I don't think Kaddaj was in the game. Only the movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oneeyedlittleman (talk • contribs) 07:41, August 24, 2007 (UTC)
 * Re-read the post: Gavin Scott was dealing with the Final Fantasy VII+Compilation of Final Fantasy VII series as a whole, not just Final Fantasy VII the PS1 game. Kariteh 08:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Completing merger stuff

 * Yuffie, Cid, Jenova, and Turks are the last mergers that should probably be done, the rest of the characters can stand on their own. After that, the article can focus on getting to GA status. Thoughts? Judgesurreal777 15:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Option
Why cant all the playable main characters just have their own articles? It means that theres more information on the page... Bit pointless trying to cram it all in on one huge page really... 01lander 17:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi. Please read WP:N and WP:FICT. Characters don't have separate pages because we like it or don't like it; their treatment depends on precise guidelines and policies. Kariteh 16:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

REALLY minor characters
I just removed some really, really, really incidental characters and commented out a few others. About those others (Johnny, Godo, Seto, Zangan), I want to discuss a bit more before removing. Johnny is mentioned in Case of Denzel and IIRC, Zangan is in Last Order. Godo and Seto are part of Yuffie's and Red's backstories respectively. Now that I think about it, I think Johnny can be mentioned with the main On the Way to a Smile paragraph (if absolutely necessary, but likely, no). Zangan, Godo, and Seto can be merged into Tifa's, Yuffie's and Red's sections, respectively. Axem Titanium 01:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Article Formatting is Horrible
I really think that the move to consolidate the FFVII articles is a little extreme. For one thing, the article looks so aesthetically unpleasing as to be an actual distraction. I remember when Wikipedia was running pre-MediaWiki: it looked so bad I didn't even bother using it for information. This article is pushing MediaWiki to its limits, maybe beyond. (I'm specifically noting the use of info boxes and how they disjoint the text flow... it's a significant issue.) And it's already long enough as it is. Really, there is nothing wrong with giving each character seperate articles, so long as there is at least a page worth of meaningful text to be written about them.

Side off of the extremism for the good of the wiki. Be sensible about this. Tcaudilllg 22:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's really a matter of WP:FICT rather than rampant mergism. On the other hand, over half of the characters DO have their own articles. I don't actually have a clue why the merged characters still have infoboxes that big. I think it was a case of anal retention from a while back that no one's bothered to fix. At any rate, very few people are actually actively working on this article (User:Guyinblack25 comes to mind) so if you'd like to help, please feel free. Axem Titanium 04:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * First thing to do is conceive of an alternate means of expressing the information. (if MediaWiki has a DHTML-style expansion box you could click to get "more info" that would be the perfect solution, but in leu of such we need something else.) One suggestion would be to actually include the infobox content in the article itself, at the end of the respective sections, as a bulleted list. The bullets, at least, won't screw the formatting. Tcaudilllg 21:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There appears to be something with the template, something about a "project policy". ...Why is there a policy for something so simple? The policy appears to be conflicting with the aim of making the article aesthetically pleasing. We need to revise the template or something. Tcaudilllg 21:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You know what? I'm coming to the conclusion that the primary fault with this article lies with the encyclopediac format itself. We're treating a hypertext system like a page-by-page book. This is an electronic encyclopedia and should have categories for the same. The categorical option and the alphabetical lookup practice we normally associate with encyclopedias are in conflict, though: would one look up "Cloud Strife" under his own name, or under Final Fantasy VII. (ideal option of course: "see FFVII.")


 * Ideally, we could have seperate articles for each of the characters here under a single "FFVII" category that one could only access via the FFVII main article. Then we could reformat under the (well adjusted) formatting scheme such a system would require.


 * This ideal would not be easy to reach.... The relevant conclusion seems to be that the current situation is unacceptable, and in leu of reformative and progressive actors working to change the nature of Wikipedia's article system we need to cope with the system as best we can. Let's take the info boxes out, and use another approach.


 * Which means we either need the right template, or we need to make one for the purposes of the article. (it could be general policy under Wikipedia project videogames) Tcaudilllg 20:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure radical overthrow of current policy is the best way to go about this. On the other hand, I have no qualms to you incorporating the infoboxes into the respective texts. Axem Titanium 02:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The formatting for this article not only is terrible but there's just a dirth of information. Considering all the translations for the characters in terms of their history and appearances in ALL of the Compilation of FFVII, including BC that are out there, thanks to the Compilation Ultimania, and how the interview in the book talks about their creation, you'd think that would merit more information and individiual articles for them. It just really is incomplete and in some ways inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.193.166.180 (talk) 03:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * After reading through this article, I really don't see why more of the references listed in the games' main article aren't listed here as is seems capable and lengthy. Perhaps someone could move more references there to here? Then put an abridged listing or description of characters can be put into the main article, prompting more people to visit this page. Sake neko (talk) 21:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

As I recall I merged most of the Main Playable Character articles into this article and only kept the infoboxes to accommodate the pictures of characters- what with that need gone is it not time to just remove the infoboxes? Now they just look messy. Also, a better lay out is needed. Il dedicate more time if I can. Gavin Scott (talk) 00:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Image removal
As debated hundreds of times elsewhere, on many, many articles, the policy stands that the use of images on character lists to depict individual characters is not acceptable. An example of one of these debates is available here. Please do not re-add the images. They are not acceptable and the inclusion of them is against policy. -Hammersoft (talk) 04:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added three key images that each depict a large number of characters and follows the precedent established at Characters of Kingdom Hearts. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The first two are ok. The third I've removed because it's a montage of four other non-free content images. That's a violation. Sorry. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've uploaded a new version of the image, which is a straight crop from the magazine scan that I got it from . The previous version wasn't really a montage in the first place because it was from the same magazine image (I rearranged it a little to save space but if you insist, I can leave it as the vertical crop). Axem Titanium (talk) 03:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Have we got this right yet?
I was looking through the article and it has come on leaps and bounds. However, I still think that perhaps we should reconsider the Main Playable Character Section. To me it seems out of sync with the rest of the article. After all this is really Characters of the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII. What I propose is that we treat the entire compilation as a whole, not FFVII PSOne Game, then Compilation, which is what it looks like now. So I think it should be.

Cloud Aerith Vincent Zack
 * Central Characters


 * Secondary Characters

Tifa Barret Red VIII Cait Sith Cid Yuffie Sephiroth Rufus The Turks Hojo Jenova Kaddaj


 * Minor Characters

here you can find the version of this article I would have...Gavin Scott (talk) 00:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You know, you can make your own sandbox in your userspace instead of replacing your talk page (example: User:Axem Titanium/Sandbox2). At any rate, I might bump Tifa up to central, or bump Aerith down. Take your pick; they're about the same level. Axem Titanium (talk) 02:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, would you accept that change to the article if Aerith was put down into Other Major Characters? (Thanks for the namespace tip too.) Gavin Scott (talk) 22:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Be my guest. No problem. :) Axem Titanium (talk) 03:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * right, well I shall go with the change- no doubt there will be some discussion here about it. Gavin Scott (talk) 17:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)