Talk:Characters of the Metal Gear series/Archive 3

SPOILERS!!
Shouldn't there be a spoiler warning on this article, I see some big ones in here.... I just got spoiled as a matter of fact, lol.


 * Way too many spoilers in here for MGS4. Thankfully I was able to detect them and avoided spoiling myself. Somebody has to either reverse the changes or give notification of spoilers for MGS4. I added a spoiler warning and some fool removed it one minute later. Check the page history.Maxtro (talk) 19:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I only removed the spoiler tag as Wikipedia does not use them. . There is a general content disclaimer here . If you don't want to know the spoilers then I suggest you don't read the pages about the game.
 * Tresiden (talk) 20:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

There needs to be some notification. I could suspect there to be spoilers on the main MGS4 article, but character bios? Seriously, it has some MAJOR spoilers in it.

24.117.156.235 (talk) 07:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The Patriots
The section on The Patriots is a little bit unclear. In Snake Eater, it's revealed that The Philosophers (from which The Patriots broke away) were formed to rebuild Europe after the war. The article had previously said that the group formed "for unknown reasons" or something like that, but I've updated it a bit. Since The Philosophers don't have a section in the article it's important to be clear in the one spot they're mentioned. Maybe it would be a good idea to mention the fact that The Patriots broke away to steal the treasure pooled by The Philosophers? GameTrailers.com has a great series of videos explaining the plot recently put up that would be a good citation for this confusing (and barely mentioned) backstory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.241.133 (talk) 05:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It might be best to wait for the impending release of Metal Gear Solid 4. The Philosphers and the Patriots are intended to be something of a mystery, and though the groups are mentioned in MGS3, MPO, and MGS2, there is never a complete explanation of exactly what they're all about, and of course, MGS2 ends with a big twist/cliff hanger regarding the Patriots. MGS4 should finally settle all matters regarding the Patriots. In the mean time, very little concrete information is available that I'm aware of, and it would be best to avoid devling into speculation. WtW-Suzaku (talk) 06:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I removed the bits about what was claimed to be Major Zero, Ocelot, Big Boss, Para-Medic, Sigint and EVA being the patriots. Don't worry about this being a spoiler either, as those are all purely speculative and plus it was wrong when it said Para-Medic was Dr. Clark as Dr. Clark was a dude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.166.43 (talk) 02:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not speculative. Its real spoilers according to the official strategy guide by Piggyback. Dr. Clark's gender was never specified in the JPN version of MGS1 (the translator simply assumed the character was male) Jonny2x4 (talk) 03:14, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Just want to clear this up but the six founders of the Patriots (Zero, Ocelot, Big Boss, etc.) are not the same people as the twelve members of the Wisemen's Committee. The Wisemen's Committee was the founding group of the Philosophers (as clarified in MGS3) and they were all dead by the time Metal Gear Solid 2 takes place. In fact the only major retcon is the fact the Wisemen's Committee was changed from the leaders of the Patriots (as stated in MGS2) to the founders of the Philosophers (as stated in MGS3). (69.236.72.169 (talk) 18:39, 14 June 2008 (UTC))

This might be about the whole article in general, but a lot of things here, especially in the Patriots section, isn't sourced. I know that everything in there is true, but there are some anal admins who would think otherwise and have a hissy fit over the lack of sources. Like when "la-li-lu-le-lo" and "Patriots" are the passwords to speak with ADAM? There should be like with the other sources: a snippet of the relevant dialogue. I know that Zero (what's up with Kojima naming people after Japanese WWII fighter planes?) says it at one point, but I can't find it at the moment. I'm just saying. ForestAngel (talk) 20:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Les Enfants Terrible (SPOILERS!)
I just read in the Metal Gear Wiki article on EVA/Big Mama that she was the surrogate mother for Solid Snake, Liquid Snake and Solidus Snake during the Les Enfants Terrible Project. Should that be added to this list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Najhoant (talk • contribs) 22:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

''She gave birth to liquid and snake, not solidus. EVA: and I gave birth to two bigbosses, you and your brother liquid''

Addition of characters
So now that MGS4 is out, it's time to start adding characters to this list. I'm thinking: I'd add them all myself, but I'll check what others think. Morgan695 (talk) 05:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Psycho Mantis
 * DARPA Chief/Sigint
 * Solidus Snake
 * Major Zero
 * Para-Medic


 * My two cents
 * Psycho Mantis' appearance in MGS4 was merely a glorified cameo, not unlike the Vulcan Raven toy in MGS2. He's even identified in the game as "Psycho Mantis from MGS1" (its a tribute to his deceased Japanese voice actor, which is why he has very few new lines, since the original Japanese lines are recycled recordings). He's not a major character in MGS4.
 * Solidus only plays a major role in MGS2 and he's just a corpse/plot device in MGS4. There's no reason to add him and he should remain in the MGS2 list. Likewise for Liquid in MGS1.
 * I could agree with Zero, but not Sigint and Para-Medic. The DARPA Chief and Sigint were originally portrayed as separate characters (despite popular speculation) and no concrete character connection was made until MGS4. "Dr. Clark" doesn't actually appear in any of the games at all, while Para-Medic only appears in MGS3/MPO.
 * In summary


 * Psycho Mantis - No
 * Solidus Snake - No
 * Sigint - A weak No
 * Para-Medic - A weak No
 * Zero - A weak Yes
 * That's my take on it.Jonny2x4 (talk) 05:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you said Johnny2x4, except that i think Psycho Mantis should be included on the list. All the other characters mentined except Zero were merely mentioned in the game and/or seen in flashbacks, but Mantis actually appeared in person (even if it only was for a short time).Rattis1 (talk) 19:44, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

New organization
I looked at the Japanese character article and I like their current approach better. Jonny2x4 (talk) 06:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The Snakes
 * Solid Snake (Old Snake)
 * Big Boss (Naked Snake)
 * Liquid Snake
 * Solidus Snake


 * Major characters
 * Hal Emmerich (Otacon)
 * Gray Fox (Frank Jaeger, Null)
 * Raiden (Jack)
 * D.P. Madnar
 * Johnny Sasaki (Akiba)
 * Vamp
 * Psycho Mantis (turns out they used a new guy after all)


 * FOXHOUND
 * Roy Campbell
 * McDonnell Miller
 * Meryl Silverburgh
 * Naomi Hunter
 * Mei Ling
 * Nastasha Romanenko
 * Rosemary


 * The Patriots
 * Zero
 * EVA
 * Ocelot
 * Sigint/Anderson
 * Para-Medic/Clark


 * MG
 * MG2
 * MGS
 * MGS2
 * MGS3
 * MPO
 * MGS4

I would change a couple things here and there, but otherwise I like it. Jonny2x4 (talk) 06:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, but I'm confused as to what you mean by your list of all the Metal Gear games following the "The Patriots" subheading. Are you suggesting that we migrate every character list into one article? Morgan695 (talk) 21:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No. Just a brief bullet-point list of exclusive characters in those games.Jonny2x4 (talk) 22:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Roy Campbell is not the CIA agent at the end of MGS3
Just for the record: The CIA agent who whispers to the DCI at the end of Snake Eater is not Roy Campbell. He's simply the founder of FOXHOUND according to Kojima's commentary from the MGS3: Extreme Box. The author of the European MGS3 strategy guide confused Kojima's statement and Campbell's role as FOXHOUND's former leader in MGS1, believing that Campbell also formed FOXHOUND. He's the same character who appears next to Zero at the end of Portable Ops. There's no retcon, because it was a mistake by a strategy guide author. Jonny2x4 (talk) 02:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Split
I know there was a huge debate when we created this page out of all the serarate character articles in the first place, but considering recent events don't a few of these deserve their own articles?

Revolver Ocelot has now appeared in 5 games (over 13) releases, as a Protagonist and Anti-Hero of sorts, being a far more important character to both the immediate story and Back story than characters like Raiden who have their own pages purely because you control them in one game. I think having your own article should be based upon your foot print on the fiction not upon real life interaction with the character. Also take as an example of how absurd our compression is getting that Captain Teague or Pirates of the Caribbean canon, who had but a single scene features his own article, while Zero, the overall (if somewhat cameo'd) Big Bad is stuck between other small features of characters with large back stories. Obviously alot of people will want to keep this together, for whatever reasons, but Ocelot, Zero and Campbell, at the least should now be upgraded to stand alone. - Jimmi Hugh (talk) 02:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I was actually thinking of splitting Ocelot to his own article the same myself. At least the Ocelot part has enough out-of-universe info to warrant a split. Jonny2x4 (talk) 03:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

A lot of these characters you get to control in portable ops anyway.

Never-Ending Link Loop!
There is a certain problem on this page that needs to be fixed. For Liquid Snake, there is a short summary about him but the page then gives a link to the "List of Characters in Metal Gear Solid" page, but then when I go to that page's section about Liquid Snake, it shows me a link to Liquid Snake's section in List of recurring characters in the Metal Gear series, except this time, only the link is there on the page!!!! This needs to be fixed immediately, and what I suggest is to restore the information on the Metal Gear Solid page and remove the link on the Metal Gear Solid page, OR you create a separate article for Liquid Snake!

Disappearing Text
Part of Rosemary's bio seems to disappear and merge into Vamps. I've taken a look at it, and all the text is there, but i don't know whats wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.219.157 (talk) 02:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

liquid ocelot
Their are many theories about liquid ocelot. Two of them mainly: -ocelot just act as liquid but he is still ocelot. -Ocelot recreate artificially liquid's soul and because the nanomachines can't make him become liquid, he uses hypnotic suggestion and a heavy psychotherapy to really become liquid,and in consequence, is a victim of a sort of multiple personality disorder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.87.219.201 (talk) 17:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

That's how it's explained in the game.... still really doesn't make a lot of sense though :/ 210.49.234.211 (talk) 03:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC) Michael

Regarding Gray Fox being older than Solid Snake
While I don't deny that Gray Fox is older than Solid Snake, I'd like to question the article's claim that "he must be somewhere in the neighborhood of 38 years older than Solid Snake".

Here's why I question that claim: Big Boss said in MPO that Gray Fox was a child soldier four years prior to the events of MPO. MPO took place in 1970, so if he was a child soldier four years prior to that, he, as far as I can tell, couldn't have been more 21 years old, at most, during MPO. Had he been 21 years old during MPO (I'd just like to clarify that it, as far as I can tell, is only the oldest he could have been during MPO. I'm not trying to say that he definately was 21 years old during MPO), he would have been 17 years old when Big Boss rescued him in Mozambique, and, as far as I know, he wouldn't have been classified as a child soldier if he was 18 years or older when Big Boss rescued him in Mozambique.

As far as I can tell, had Gray Fox been born in 1949 (Which, as far as I can tell, is the earliest year in which he could have been born, since it would have made him 17 years old when Big Boss rescued him in Mozambique), he would be 23 years older than Solid Snake, which, in my opinion, isn't "somewhere in the neighborhood of 38 years older than Solid Snake". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.197.29.234 (talk) 18:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:MGS VR Mei Ling.gif
The image Image:MGS VR Mei Ling.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:


 * File:Raiden (MGS4).jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --10:10, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Cleaning up.
I thinking of moving this to List of characters in the Metal Gear series, cleaning it up, and merge all of the other game-specific lists (MGS, MGS2, and MGS3), considering the poor conditions those articles are right now. Considering the Metal Gear series does have an over-aching storyline with many recurring characters, it would be best this way. Jonny2x4 (talk) 01:37, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Without blowing my own trumpet MGS characters was a FL until recently and doesn't require too much work to get back there. †he Bread 3000 09:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * This appears to be an appropriate merge to me. Despite Bread's comment, List of characters in Metal Gear Solid has not become a featured list in the past year since he suggested that it could easily become so. Four separate lists about one media franchise's fictional characters who are not individually notable is excessive. Neelix (talk) 17:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

How does the Colonel know Raiden or Rose?
The colonel in the second metal gear is an AI and Raiden and the Colonel have never even met. Somehow in the fourth Campbell says to Snake something along the lines of, "We lost track of Raiden after the mission", and Rose talks about how he wouldn't talk to Campbell anymore and that Rose and Campbell get married because he originally consoled her over the loss of their son and the emotional distance of Raiden. I don't understand how this works at all, I mean Campbell doesn't know Raiden or Rose at all. I think it's a pretty big plot hole. It's a bigger plot hole than somone pretending that there's someone living in their transplanted arm and pulling off the charade. 210.49.234.211 (talk) 03:47, 23 February 2009 (UTC) Michael

You got a point, my guess is that by "we" he is not talking like the military, like a CO, he means the UN, is not like Arsenal gear, Solidus`s body just vanished, Rose said he got a job, "after the mission" doesn`t precisely mean the day after, surely they keep in touch with Snake and Otacon, they knew the baby needed to be protected from the same fate than Sunny. There are several ways they could have meet. Zidane tribal (talk) 21:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I think they just forgot and it was tacked on. In the original script both the colonel and rose were supposed to be figments of Raidens imagination but they decided that Rose should exist. That's why the part at the end when a Rose AI starts talking to Raiden it gets so confusing. I think it should be acknowledged that MGS4 storyline was not very cohesive to the rest of the series. A lot of fans say this on forums and just because internet sites like gamespot and IGN say differently means nothing. They seldom give a bad score to any headlining title regardless of quality, probably because people would stop buying games and stop looking at gamespot and IGN. 210.49.234.211 (talk) 03:47, 23 February 2009 (UTC) Michael


 * Who knows they Raiden and Rose could've met the real Campbell after the Big Shell. Either way, this is about the subjects, not the article. Jonny2x4 (talk) 02:27, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Well it's written in the article that he's just an AI in the second and then he jumps into being married to Rose. Why would he meet Raiden or Rose and why would Snake be totally unaware of the fact in the fourth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.242.8 (talk) 14:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

MGS4 is set 5 years after sons of liberty; that`s enough time for a lot of things to happen, Rose was a military analist, they could have help her to contact Campbell, i mean, sure is not said how they meet but if in the two years between MGS and MGS 2 Snake and Otacon destroyed "countless Metal Gears" and between MGS2 and MGS4 Liquid Ocelot amassed and army to confront the US, the world was engulfed in proxy wars, Meryl is the leader of her own unit and Mei Ling is a Navy Captain i think is not weird that a pawn of the patriots like Rose who wanted to prevent the same fate as Olga and her child tried anything and anyone. Finally, Snake is not very social to begin with, even without the aging thing, so is not really a surprise he didn`t know, i don`t think Rose wanted a lot o people to know, after all the whole point was to keep her son safe. Zidane tribal (talk) 18:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Inappropriate Citation
As I was reading through this article, I noticed the statement under "Dr. Hal Emmerich" which says that Emmerich and Snake may have been in a homosexual relationship. The debatable nature of this statement in addition to the fact that it begins with "Critics argue..." provoked me to check its citation (#14). The article I was linked to contains no information or criticisms related to the statement, and as a whole very little on the Metal Gear series. I do not know if the citation is broken or if it is simply incorrect, but unless it is changed or otherwise fixed, the statement in the article will be unjustified and should be removed. 24.15.197.87 (talk) 08:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC) Whoops, my bad. Just checked the page again. Apparently someone took care of it within the past few days and didn't say anything about it here. Oh, well. Problem resolved. 24.15.197.87 (talk) 23:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If nothing is changed about this by the end of March, I'll erase the statement and its citation. Even with the "citation needed" tag, the phrase is still suggestive and may mislead readers. Again, from my observations, the site cited mentions nothing about a homosexual relationship. I've tried to dig up other reliable sites which might mention something like that, but, as I expected, the only sources I could find were blogs, fanpages, etc. (which, obviously, aren't sources at all). 24.15.197.87 (talk) 23:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Question
I know that i`m not supposed to simply ask questions on talk pages but, could someone explain to me exactly, when, how, who says that nanomachines transform "THe patriots" in "la-li-lu-le-lo", i`ve played sons of liberty quite a few times and i don`t recal it. for example, Mayor Dolph says, La-li-lu-le-lo out loud, and Raiden hear "the patriots" with Snake and the president, and la-li-lu-le-lo with the ninja and with Ames, could someone explain that to me. Zidane tribal (talk) 18:19, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

New Subsection "Protagonists"
It first lists the Snakes and then the other characters. I think it would be more clearly to first list the Protainists/ Player Characters and work the remaining snakes into the ramaining list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.79.90.100 (talk) 11:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Big Boss' real first name
Is Big Boss' real name not Jack, not John? In the official MGS3 website, it says his 'nickname' is Jack - Jack a nickname for John? He's called Jack most of the game, only using the name 'John' at the end when talking to Ocelot. I thought he was using an alias so Ocelot couldn't identify him easily afterwards. G.O.R. 25 (talk) 19:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)