Talk:Charles Algernon Parsons

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He "was an Irish engineer" "born in London" - Sounds a bit Irish to me ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MaltaGC (talk • contribs) 20:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The great British philosopher Anscombe was born in Limerick, but the Irish do not say she was Irish, nor Anglo-Irish, she was a British person who happened to have been born in Ireland (her father was stationed there). There are countless examples of the same. Also, using the term "Anglo-Irish" does explain a bit more about the person's heritage, but in fact the "Anglo-Irish" were surprised to hear of themselves being described as a 'hyphenated Irish' person! This is because they themselves considered themselves "Irish". At different stages of varying political debate and intensity some of the (Anglo-)Irish may have called themselves British ASWELL. Finally, your use of the word "Irish" in your last comment is a bit needlessly offensive. And it's also a bit ironic as you are the one who got it wrong (though no one is actually suggesting you are thick) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donn300 (talk • contribs) 12:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Please see Charles Parsons' grand-nephew, Michael Parsons' Trinity Monday Discourse, 1968. http://www.tcd.ie/Secretary/FellowsScholars/discourses/discourses/1968_Lord%20Rosse%20on%20W.%20Parsons.pdf which in turn you can find here, http://www.tcd.ie/Secretary/FellowsScholars/discourses/

This is for people who are concerned (possessive, maybe?) about members of the Parsons family, especially Charles, being not Irish for some reason. They object to Charles Parsons being described as Irish using the excuse/detail that he was London-born (above I earlier pointed to the example of "the great British philosopher Anscombe who was born in Limerick, but the Irish do not say she was Irish, nor Anglo-Irish, she was a British person who happened to have been born in Ireland (her father was stationed there). There are countless examples of the same..."). I think it's simply they want to claim Charles Parsons as British only, and exclude the more (or solely) Irish part of his make-up, just because he was brilliant. Funny how they only claim the great ones.

Well now, in the same reference I just gave, one can see on page 5 that Charles Parson's father:

"William Parsons, subsequently to become third Earl of Rosse, came of a family which first crossed to Ireland from Leicestershire towards the end of the Elizabethan era, at almost exactly the time of the foundation of this College [TCD, 1592]. His paternal ancestors had subsequently lived at Birr for eight consecutive generations and had become firmly rooted in the soil of Central Ireland".

And so, Charles Parsons' paternal ancestors lived at Birr for 9 consecutive generations and the 9th generation was also firmly rooted in the soil of Central Ireland. In fact they were so well rooted that "excursions from Birr were to be very rare" (p.6).

On page 7 this is how the 6th Earl Michael Parsons describes the education of William, the 3rd Earl, his great grandfather (Charles Parsons' father):

"Unfortunately no information about the two years spent there [TCD] has come to light, except that they both acquitted themselves so creditably that they were sent on to Magdalen College, Oxford. For an IRISH BOY this was an unusual step at that time and there must have been weighty reasons indeed to induce their father, in particular, to take it, both because of his political traditions and because of his own long-standing associations with Trinity. It can only be that his parental feelings came first and that their records so far were outstanding enough for them to deserve the very best education available to suit their special talents at the time. Presumably he was advised that this could be got even better at Oxford".

Then when Charles Parsons' father, the great astronomer William, brought up his family at Birr:

"a steady stream of visitors came, from all over the world. For more than half a century, to the end of my grandfather's life [1908], Birr became an international scientific centre...Scientific discoveries continued to be made at Birr for a further forty years, to which brief reference should be made. The FOUR SONS [incl Charles] of the house were educated AT HOME [in Birr, in IRELAND] by private tutors, all of whom were well versed in the sciences and acted also as practical assistants to their father in his astronomical work. One of them later became, as Sir Robert Ball, Astronomer Royal for Ireland." (p.11)

We can learn about further growing up & education in Ireland when on page 9 in a comment that Charles Parsons' mother:

"was an equally devoted wife and mother and subsequently showed her conscientiousness with regard to her sons' education by taking a house in Dublin, when the two youngest entered this College [TCD] shortly after their father's death."

So Charles Parsons and brothers grew up in Ireland, were educated at home, and then went to the nearest university (a pretty good one too) in the capital along with their mother who took a house there. All very straight-forward. Why then do some people object to him being described as Irish? It is more likely true if there was a British element in HIS idea of his make-up then, it would've been as "Irish and British".

He may well have considered that he had added the "British" bit to his identity after moving to Britain (as an adult) and spending many years there - straight forward Naturalisation.

Also as I said above, "using the term "Anglo-Irish" does explain a bit more about the person's heritage, but in fact the "Anglo-Irish" were surprised to hear of themselves being described as a 'hyphenated Irish' person! This is because they themselves considered themselves "Irish". At different stages of varying political debate and intensity some of the (Anglo-) Irish may have called themselves British ASWELL". I might've added that 'the "Anglo-Irish" were surprised AND OFTEN ANNOYED to hear of themselves being described as a 'hyphenated Irish' person! This is because they themselves considered themselves "Irish"....'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donn300 (talk • contribs) 21:24, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

A person called Murray1975 changed Parsons back from being 'Irish' to being 'British' (yet again), but none of the following are called "British" in Wikipedia (Murray1975 only insists on "British" for some Irish people that (s)he wants to claim): Rankine was a "Scottish Civil Engineer", Watt was a "Scottish inventor and mechanical engineer", Brunel was an "English Mechanical and Civil Engineeer", Telford was a "Scottish Civil Engineer", Babbage was an "English polymath", Newcomen was "an English inventor", Stephenson was an English Civil engineer and mechanical engineer". J'accuse Murray1975...of blatant bias. (And why doesn't (s)he try to claim Irish bad or unsuccessful people as 'British'?). Leaving politics out of it, it is not right that Murray1975 (& others) suppress the fact that Parsons was Irish, in the same way that Rankine was Scottish etc., regardless of what way (or how, originally in 1800) Ireland was temporarily in the United Kingdom (against her wishes or not).


 * Tautology, comparing apples and oranges Donn, Parsons was British as it is inclusive of both Irish (which you have tried to insert) and Anglo-Irish (which you have tried to insert) at the time and is sourced, it is also a nationality as opposed to A-I. Your addition of home educated and Irish educated is good, but Cambridge isnt in Ireland. selecting parts to advance your POV is poor.
 * But your biggest mistake is "only insists on "British" for some Irish people that (s)he wants to claim", if that was the case I, like you, would be calling them Irish- as I am myself, that can clearly be seen on my user page. Murry1975 (talk) 22:02, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Alexandrian Solution.
What say we put a stop to this squabbling and act in a collaborative fashion? The article is becoming bloated with refinement after refinement and implicit claims about Parsons's nationality. Some are crowbarred in, dragging with them things that are scarcely relevant to the topic of the man himself. I can find no requirement that nationality be included in the infobox. If there is such a rule, it is applied with spectacular inconsistency. And, of course, Wikipedia can't be offered in support anyway.

The situation is not helped by the complicated political evolution of the British Isles over many centuries (and it shows little sign of becoming less so).

Let's just leave out all views, interpretations, verdicts, etc that are pointlessly contentious. Let us simply describe Parsons's circumstances and let the reader come to his/her own decision, assuming that he/she thinks the matter important enough.

Let all claims, real or imagined, to ownership of Algernon be renounced. I have offered a form of words that I hope will improve the article. It will be instructive to see who cannot bring themselves to accept this step towards resolution of the dispute.


 * Er, WP:MOSBIO, we include nationality in the lead. As for infoboxes, no real guide for usage there as there is consensus that they may or may not be used themselves in articles. As per WP:RS we use what is sourced. The fact that one editor cannot except this is no reason to leave it out, WP:CONSENSUS and WP:IDLI are both very relevant to the situation. Murry1975 (talk) 07:01, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Edit by Murry1975, April 18th, 2015.
Er, ''It is considered good practice to provide a summary for every edit, especially when reverting (undoing) the actions of other editors or deleting existing text; otherwise, people may question your motives for the edit. Edits that do not have an edit summary are more likely to be reverted, because it may not be obvious what the purpose of the edit was.''

I think we can draw our own conclusions about the motives, anyway. When additional and relevant sourced information (remember - "As per WP:RS we use what is sourced") is removed without explanation, and ambiguous pronouns restored, amongst other things, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the aim of the editor is not to improve the article, but something else. The removal of a book from the bibliography - the only actual book connected with the subject - is similarly difficult to justify.

To quote Murry1975 again, "the fact that one editor cannot except this is no reason to leave it out." It seems that we have difficulty in deciding to which editor that applies. In the early stages of these discussions, Murry1975 had my sympathies, especially in view of the decidedly idiosyncratic views of some of his opponents. Sadly, that is no more. I have attempted to improve this article in line with the "principles" of Wikipedia, and have provided explanations of the changes I have made. I am eager to read Murry1975's explanation for his reversal. Edith Waring (talk) 20:43, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Your edit was poor, pipelink clear links adding a book which isnt by or primarily about the subject. Read WP:MOS and WP:LINKING for the further help you need. Rm book gain, bot cleaned up the links already. Murry1975 (talk) 18:01, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Then the bot has contributed more than you have. Edith Waring (talk) 18:56, 19 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The book is not a helpful edition, if it is explain before re-addding. Murry1975 (talk) 20:13, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

And the winner is...

 * The page says Parsons "invented" the steam turbine, yet, at the same time, says the best steam turbine at the time was de Laval's... Say what? Clearly, the contradiction needs fixing.
 * Plus, since he was born in Ireland, & since there's a long history of anybody Irish never getting credit for doing anything good (& always getting a mention for the bad), shouldn't Parsons be listed as Irish, not British?  TREKphiler   any time you're ready, Uhura  16:45, 26 July 2015 (UTC)


 * As you and Andy Dingley would probably say, the last time I checked, London was in England. Edith Waring (talk) 17:22, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
 * What do the sources say for Parsons' origins? Andy Dingley (talk) 17:30, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
 * And when such (AFAICS, unanimous) sources are added, Edith blanks them. Helpful. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

"What do the sources say for Parsons' origins?" The ones you have selected? Why, they say what you want the article to say. "Helpful"? Is that sarcasm, Andy? I thought you didn't like that. Edith Waring (talk) 20:31, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
 * So which credible sources have you given that disagree? Andy Dingley (talk) 21:45, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Coming late to this discussion, perhaps the best solution is to retain Anglo-Irish in the first sentence but use the accurate and legal term for his nationality British subject in the infobox. Everyone in the Empire in 1854 was a British subject, some were Irish, some were English, some were Scottish and some were Indian or African. Dabbler (talk) 12:44, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That works for me. I can appreciate the point that Anglo-Irish isn't a nationality and so it's a problem in the infobox.
 * My main point is that his family was Anglo-Irish (one of the most prominent of them) and this isn't affected by whether he's born in London or Dublin. Unless he's born on Ailsa Craig, why would being London-born make any difference? If he is to be born in Ireland or not-Ireland Britain, it would have to be either one or the other, it can hardly be both. There seems to be a view that being born in London makes him purely English and definitively non-Irish, which is to miss the whole point of the Anglo-Irish aristocracy.
 * Provided that the prose retains the description and link to Anglo-Irish, I'm happy with a nationality of British (as English isn't a nationality either). Andy Dingley (talk) 15:15, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, here is what many would consider a reliable source (The Science Museum) which states that he was "English". http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/onlinestuff/People/Charles%20Algernon%20Parsons.aspx
 * Britannica calls him British http://www.britannica.com/biography/Charles-Algernon-Parsons Dabbler (talk) 12:53, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

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Edit War
The ongoing edit war about whether Anglo-Irish should be used or British to describe Parsons comes down to the definition of Anglo-Irish. According to Anglo-Irish people, it is a social class rather than a nationality. Therefore British (or perhaps Irish) would be the correct nationality and Anglo-Irish is correctly used in the Biography section. Dabbler (talk) 16:00, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

A point Dabbler has already made, and as I've pointed out, and (although he has trouble remembering) as has Andy Dingley: "Provided that the prose retains the description and link to Anglo-Irish, I'm happy with a nationality of British (as English isn't a nationality either). Andy Dingley (talk) 15:15, 28 July 2015". Which is exactly the case now. We exist only to keep Andy Dingley happy. It's just that he sometimes makes it hard for us.

"Anglo-Irish" may certainly be used to describe Parsons, because he was. "British" describes his nationality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.18.16 (talk) 07:33, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * But you are 4RR edit-warring to remove "Anglo-Irish" from the lead, not just from the infobox. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:52, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I want to draw attention to bias in the approach here when compared to other entries. It is important to note that none of the following similar pioneers are called "British" in Wikipedia:


 * Rankine was a "Scottish Civil Engineer",
 * Watt was a "Scottish inventor and mechanical engineer",
 * Brunel was an "English Mechanical and Civil Engineeer",
 * Telford was a "Scottish Civil Engineer",
 * Babbage was an "English polymath",
 * Newcomen was "an English inventor",
 * Stephenson was "an English Civil engineer and mechanical engineer".

Now, Parsons was brought up in Ireland, educated in Ireland (at the family HOME (which was in IRELAND), and then at the nearest university). Why is there an attempt to deny the link to Ireland? Some people want to blatantly use a different way to describe him compared to all of the other examples above to suit their own agenda. Charles Parsons' grand-nephew, Michael Parsons, in his Trinity Monday Discourse in 1968 commented on Charles' father moving from TCD "..to Magdalen College, Oxford. For an IRISH BOY this was an unusual step at that time..". So we know the family considered Charles' father to be Irish (which is not unusual given that he was brought up & educated there!), and they also considered Charles to be Irish. That is not to say that he was not other things ASWELL. (see the Trinity Monday Discourse here http://www.tcd.ie/Secretary/FellowsScholars/discourses/discourses/1968_Lord%20Rosse%20on%20W.%20Parsons.pdf which in turn you can find here, http://www.tcd.ie/Secretary/FellowsScholars/discourses )

Leaving politics out of it, it is not right that some people suppress the fact that Parsons was Irish, in the same way that Rankine was Scottish etc., regardless of what way (or how, originally in 1800) Ireland was temporarily in the United Kingdom (against her wishes or not). Donn300 (talk) 19:17, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

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