Talk:Charles Auguste Creutzer

Creutzer sources
The primary source is Dictionnaire biographique des généraux & amiraux Français de la Révolution et de l'Empire (1792-1814) Author Georges Six (vol.I pg.272)


 * (French) Six, Georges (1934). Dictionnaire biographique des généraux & amiraux Français de la Révolution et de l'Empire (1792-1814). Paris, Librairie Saffroy, 1934.

Can you please put the entry below in proper form under Reference? This cites him as a Bitche commander (which sounds dangerous).
 * Title 1808-1815 Histoire des idées et critique littéraire ; v. 170, 201, 372, 417 Volume 7 Journal Authors Marc marquis de Bombelles, Marc Bombelles (marquis de), Jean Grassion, Frans Durif, Jeannine Charon-Bordas p. 319.

All of the information I've added today also comes from pg. 272 (Six). I don't know how many footnotes need to be added (born in Deux-Ponts, etc.) but it all comes from pg.272SAWme (talk) 06:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Gg. Six says only "Gudin", Charles Etienne looked correct but I didn't have specific confirmation. Later I saw your Family entry that Creutzer's sister married the same guy, so, while still not specific confirmation, it looks like a pretty good guess.

I think his lower military ranks (brigadier, sous-lieutenant, etc.) need better explaination.

Sorry for sending you what looked like garbage, I know the information well but am clueless as to data entry — Preceding unsigned comment added by SAWme (talk • contribs) 09:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

More info.
Battle of Memmingen
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Goullus This site lists the source of "battle of Memmingen May 10,1800" as
 * no page#

Another Battle of Memmingen October 13(wiki) &/or14(entry for Nicolas-Jean de Dieu Soult, duc de Dalmatie [Six vol.II pg.472]),1805. (Future marshal) Soult captures 4,600 of General-Major Karl Spangen von Uyternesse's brigade.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Elchingen

The Tuskeegee Airmen provided fighter protection when the town was bombed on July 18,1944.
 * http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org/explore/The%20Battle%20of%20Memmingen.pdf

Also the name chosen by the rock band Deep Purple for a concert they held there in 1993.

A Bit More
I've got another short paragraph to do for 1816-32 & I/we need to find some more info. on 1815 I think the grammar is a little awkward, so how about: "Creutzer's sister, Jeanne Caroline Christine married Napoleonic general & French noble, Charles Etienne César Gudin de la Sablonnière (comte)(1768-1812)."

Gg. Six says Creutzer married the niece of Marshal Lefebvre, but doesn't give her name.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Joseph_Lefebvre

Thank you for Zoller[n]

I'll stop screwing with stuff for a couple of days & give you a breakSAWme (talk) 11:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * They often married several wives in quick succession at that time -- child birth was a risky business -- The precise wording of the sentence does not matter to me as you seem to have grasped the important point that because this is a a web page details that would be in parenthesis or notes in paper copes can be left out because it can be found via a link.


 * However "French noble" in you proposed wording is not precise enough because the 1st Empire recreated noble ranks (on which (of course) Wikipedia has an article Nobility of the First French Empire.-- PBS (talk) 12:23, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Zoller[n], Karl Julian Freiherr von (1762-1821) but that would be is wrong.
 * Zoller, Freidrich Johann Daniel Aloys (1762-1821)
 * (German)http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_von_Zoller
 * (German)http://books.google.com/books?id=7Fk-AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1055&lpg=PA1055&dq=Zoller:+Friedrich+Johann+Daniel+Alois+Freiherr+von+1815&source=bl&ots=9WG7JQ0hNH&sig=62ZFhZZOIN5XD6XanoeTmcHaHRg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MAEaUcE6pKjQAZ7AgLAC&sqi=2&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Zoller%3A%20Friedrich%20Johann%20Daniel%20Alois%20Freiherr%20von%201815&f=false (pg.1055) confirmation of Friedrich Zoller as commander of 4th Bavarian division in 1815.

-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by SAWme (talk • contribs) 09:06, 12 February 2013‎


 * I refactored your last comment (now directly above this one} because others reading this thread would have no idea that you added it later, and it changes the meaning of what is written before it was made. -- PBS (talk) 14:46, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * So what do you want to do about it? There is a PD available at Wikisource:de:ADB:Zoller, Friedrich Freiherr von which can be translated and used as is for an article (providing we give it proper attribution (see WP:PLAGIARISM). If you are still not sure how to create an article link Friedrich, Freiherr von Zoller then if you do the translation and place in in your sandbox: User:SAWme/sandbox I'll use it to create an article (if not then I can also do the translation). -- PBS (talk) 14:46, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

1816-32 & rank adjustments
This is the rest of my info. for Creutzer, same source & page.

My reasons for changes in rank: Brigadier = corporal in French cavalry terminology of the period.


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_in_the_French_Army explains it well & seems like a good site to link to.

This line is very confusing: (A position in the quarter marshal service)  I do not understand where quarter "marshal" service comes from, the cited article refers to the "quarter-master" service (supply). Maréchal des logis is better translated as "sergeant" and may or may not be connected with supply. I think the entire phrase should be removed.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%A9chal-des-logis should link up directly (in English english).

Two more direct links
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Joseph_Lefebvre Marshal Francois Joseph Lefebvre.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Lecourbe Claude-Jacques Lecourbe

Copied from talk:minor campaigns of 1815


 * It matters not, you are the rulesmeister. I simply want better information.
 * procide? (produce/provide?) ?http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/procide?

"second battle of Kulm" is used by Gg. Six, but I have not found another reference.

Why remove 3 May - 22 October 1815 service dates for Bitche?SAWme (talk) 11:24, 9 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Whoops. "Marshal" as a typo by me I meant "master" I must have mistyped it and was not diligent enough looking at the the replacement word (sorry!). As to whether it is removed. The cited source, gives the translation, but I am not fussed about it.


 * "procide" was a mistake, it should have been "produce" (which I think is obvious in the original context) I often make mistakes like that, particularly if I do not spend a lot of time checking what I have written :-O


 * As to Kreutzer or Creutzer in minor campaigns of 1815 then if I have to make the decision lets go with Kreutzer as it saves including the additional reference in the other article.


 * I am not sure why you mentioned "second battle of Kulm" here. If it is because of the red link then it does not matter, as that is an indication that at some point we will need an article on it, but as yet have no additional information.


 * I removed the service dates from the Bitche sentence simply because I though them relatively unimportant factoid and that the sentence construction was more elegant without them. -- PBS (talk) 12:32, 9 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The new paragraph that starts "He returned to service..." needs an inline citation.


 * The new paragraph that starts "He married the niece..." Needs moving down into the family section and needs a inline citation.
 * --PBS (talk) 12:32, 9 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I mentioned the second battle of Kulm because I think it will be difficult/impossible to find an existing account of the action independent of Six. I thought "procide" might be some technical "wiki"word, but as you see, I did understand your intent.


 * The battle of Valuntino was mentioned primarily because of a discrepancy betwween Gg. Six & the Wikipedia entry as to the date of the battle. It WAS mentioned in the article as extra info. about Gudin, but you threw that out, so you can throw out See Also Valuntino too.


 * The reference to quarter-marshal/master should be removed. While maréchal des logis can refer to quartermaster service, in this case it does not, he is a simple sergeant.


 * Can you help in linking Lecourbe, Lefebvre & Ranks in the French Army?SAWme (talk) 10:28, 10 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Done. See also: help:linking and Manual of Style/Linking -- PBS (talk) 18:25, 10 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I will. (See Luddite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite)SAWme (talk) 08:37, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * That link is Luddite ;-) -- PBS (talk) 08:46, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Identity of General Gudin
According to Georges Six, Creutzer was "aide de camp provisoire du général Gudin, 20 juillet 1800." Editors have questioned which General Gudin this is. It's really not difficult to find out.

Looking further into Six's dictionary, we find there were three General Gudins during the Napoleonic period:


 * Etienne Gudin (1734-1820)
 * Charles-Étienne Gudin de La Sablonnière (1768-1812) nephew to Etienne
 * Pierre César Gudin des Bardelières (1775-1855), younger brother to Charles-Étienne

We can rule Pierre César out right away: he didn't become a general till 1812. We can rule out Etienne too, he retired in 1795. So that only leaves Charles-Étienne standing. When you add in the fact that he became Creutzer's brother-in-law, and that he was (arguably) the famous General Gudin who fought under Davout in the III Corps, there really isn't any doubt which one Six is talking about. Chuntuk (talk) 15:30, 9 September 2022 (UTC)