Talk:Charles Borromeo

Tag I just placed
Having originally checked into this article to add a better picture I took of his coffin when I was in Milan last summer before Wikimania, I happened to notice that a fair amount of the article's text is not only uncited but somewhat ... hagiographic, as noted above, even given that it is the biography of a saint. For example: "Charged with implementing the reforms dictated by the Council of Trent, Charles had to be tough, and his toughness brought him into conflict with secular leaders, priests, and even the pope himself". Yes this is cited, but language like this cannot just be cited, it has to be quoted, attributed or in some way made clear that this is not Wikipedia speaking.

I suspected that a lot of this might have been copypasted from somewhere else, so I ran the article through Earwig's Copyvio Detector. Sure enough, I was right. A good deal of this source, itself taken from The Lives of the Saints but not attributed as such when it is cited here, as it should be, turns up in the text of this article.

So, in addition to saying whatever amount of Hail Marys and Our Fathers prescribed in the confessional, the penance needs to include taking care of this and rewriting in Wikipedia's voice, taking care to maintain NPOV. Daniel Case (talk) 03:17, 30 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I have made a start on toning down the hagiographical tone, which was certainly intrusive in places. I am practising RC by the way.  Tigerboy1966  11:17, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Ribera slander?
There seems to be no evidence for the Ribera incident, so this passage should probably be removed. The article claims:


 * He [Charles Borromeo] successfully attacked his Jesuit confessor, Giovanni Battista Ribera, who, with other members of the college of Milan, was found to be guilty of "unnatural offenses". This action increased the number of Borromeo's enemies within the church.

A historian tells me:


 * Ribera never was stationed in Milan.
 * Source of the calumny: perhaps Agnelli, apostate priest, 1762/3 published letter of Charles, supported by Portuguese envoy, Almada, tool of Pombal. Letters mutilated; falsified. [B N The Jesuits: their history and foundation. London. Burns and Oates. 1879 p. 139]

He cites from: John Peter Guissano, The Life of St Charles Borromeo. Aetna Press 2015:


 * The young archbishop  suddenly assumed a life of great rigidity….All this was attributed by the Jesuits to the unction of Father Ribera and the “Spiritual Exercises” of Loyola and the harassments consequent to the reforms set on foot by the zealous archbishop, suggested, according to the Jesuits, one of the foulest charges imaginable against the confessor Ribera.[Sacchinus. lib. viii, 13. Joly, i, 465.]…I need not say that the hostile histories of the Jesuits broadly and boldly assert the charges, as though they were facts, [Pasquier Quesnel, Moral Reflections on the New Testament] though Charles Borromeo himself is stated to have recognized Ribera’s innocence, and continued to honor him with his confidence. [Guissano, a contemporary, De Vita Sancti Caroli Borromei, and others]

Pernimius (talk) 14:30, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

"Latin" Archbishop of Milan
what other Archbishops of Milan were there? Why have "Latin" there?--2607:FEA8:D5DF:1AF0:3516:3674:C59F:4426 (talk) 12:51, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, silly. It says he was Catholic in the same sentence. Removed. Johnbod (talk) 17:22, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

The attack on the Catholic Church
"Subsequently, he devoted himself to the reformation of his diocese which had deteriorated in practice owing to the 80-year absence of previous archbishops. Milan was the largest archdiocese in Italy at the time, with more than 3,000 clergy and 800,000 people. Both its clergy and laity had drifted from church teaching. The selling of indulgences and ecclesiastical positions was prevalent; monasteries were "full of disorder"; many religious were "lazy, ignorant, and debauched". Borromeo made numerous pastoral visits and restored dignity to divine service."

This is the hideous attack on the Catholic Church in the form of slander. Szukający Prawdy (talk) 11:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Errors
"Queen Elizabeth I. He gave pastoral attention to English Catholics who fled to Italy to escape the new laws against the Catholic faith. Edmund Campion, a Jesuit, and Ralph Sherwin visited him at Milan in 1580 on their way to England. They stayed with him for eight days, talking with him every night after dinner."

Elizabeth I was never the Queen of England (there should be "alleged queen" everywhere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regnans_in_Excelsis, so there was no England either (a heretic with no right to the throne and Anglicanism with persecution of Christians) and there was no Italy either (there was the Papal States, the Kingdom of Naples, probably the Duchies and the Republic).

The heading "Persecution of religious dissidents" is wrong. It is as if sorcerers, witches and heretics were innocent, and Saint Charles Borromeo was the bad guy because he illegally persecuted them. This is the slander. Szukający Prawdy (talk) 13:01, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

The one great hideous slander
"Charged with implementing the reforms dictated by the Council of Trent, Borromeo's uncompromising stance brought him into conflict with secular leaders, priests, and even the Pope. He met with much opposition to his reforms. The governor of the province and many of the senators addressed complaints to the courts of Rome and Madrid."

This is the one great hideous slander. Through this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Charles_Borromeo#Tag_I_just_placed you will reach this "Lives of the Saints by Sabine Baring-Gould" (close the brackets in the page address because there is some glitch) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_the_Saints_(Baring-Gould) and to this, that this gentleman (author) was an "Anglican priest" (Pope Leon XIII announced the invalidity of "Anglican Holy Orders" in the Bull Apostolicae curae (13/09/1896)) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Baring-Gould Please read about Saint Charles Borromeo, that he was the one of the Inquisitors General (so what was his attitude towards heretics (including Anglicans) ?), etc. Now we know where this snake, viper's tongue, this venom, comes from. Please note that neither in the so-called "Polish-language" Wikipedia there are no sources nor in the so-called "English-language" Wikipedia there was no source (as it follows from the link to the remark posted here). Why ? What do you think ? Szukający Prawdy (talk) 16:04, 6 November 2023 (UTC)