Talk:Charles Bukowski/Archive 2

Bukowski snubbed by Oxford Anthology of Modern American Poetry
Anthology of Modern American Poetry. Edited by Cary Nelson. Oxford University Press, 2000. 1,249 pages. Very many poets included. Bukowski was not included. A is putting the smack down (talk) 09:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ask Cary Nelson for details. In the preface to the anthology Nelson does say that some publishers ask "exorbitant reprint fees" and this caused the omission of many poems> Bukowski was not included at all. Since Bukowski is really not known for any specific poems the anthology would hve had to reproduce a nice amount to show his artistry, which may have been too costly. The anthology is important and influential. It is on the shelves of many local libraries here in Los Angeles, and there are not many poetry anthologies of this type on LA public library shelves. A from L.A. (talk) 21:11, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Nice work, total neutering - oh, I'm sorry, I mean neutrality - is almost complete
This is almost idiotic, uninformative and useless enough to qualify as an A-Class wikipedia article! Keep up the good work. You are only a few bits of completely erroneous and incorrect information away from perfection. Keep shooting for the stars. I'm sure there is someone here who can dust this thing up and pull a few more invented literary movements from their ass to hang on Bukowski. Get to work, slackers.

By the way, you removed the external link to bukowski.net calling the site a "chat forum," yet cite the timeline from bukowski.net in the References section. Typical. Now that I look at it, I suppose the six or seven hundred manuscripts, 5,599 entry database of Bukowski's published work, timeline, interviews, articles and FBI files on bukowski.net are trivial. You're right. I have seen the light. You are the experts after all.

You're almost there, kids. Don't give up now.

Smog.net (talk) 23:16, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Er, do you have anything you want to say to help improve the article? Maybe you could improve the article. External links, like other content, are open to discussion and maybe a reversal of a decision. This is a work in progress. However, sarcasm is self-defeating. Just a hint.  Ty  00:49, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Please put the link to bukowski.net back up. There's more good information on Bukowski there than any other site on the web. 76.169.18.154 (talk) 08:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have done. It seems useful to me.  Ty  08:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Gracias! 76.169.18.154 (talk) 21:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe you could improve the article.  Ty  00:49, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You must be new around here. Yes, I could improve the article. But why bother when people who know next to nothing about the subject can stumble in and piss all over it? It's really an exercise in futility, and far too masochistic a pursuit for me. I'll leave the improving of this comprehensive and well crafted - whatever it is - to the experts and geniuses who have made it what it is. --Smog.net (talk) 16:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Bring Me Your Love?
Article is missing the novel, Bring Me Your Love. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.200.184 (talk) 10:50, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Bring Me Your Love is a short story, not a novel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.228.28 (talk) 05:59, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

pre beat generation?
Is Bukowski pre beat generation? (It is mistake, I think )

Second generation west coast Beat.

Maybe Anti-Beat. He didn't write well of them, e.g. Burroughs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.90.251.109 (talk) 00:58, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

His father was German-American?
Bukowski is an evidently Slavic last name (Polish to be exact) so how did we come up with the assertion that his father was "German-American"?

Likeminas (talk) 12:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * His father (and I think mother) was born in Germany, which would make him German. His family spoke only English and German, apparently, too.  But you're totally correct on the last name being Slavic.  Does anyone have any answers on that?  I noticed the "Polish-American" category under bukowski and I can't recall any instance of him claiming to be Polish, but the last name clearly is.  Anyone have geneaology records to explain where his last name came from?--Korey Kaczynski (talk) 01:41, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Polish-sounding last names are somewhat common in Germany. Poland and Germany share a border, and for the past 1,000 years or so, this border was always changing. Obviously, people also migrated back and forth. Repkow (talk) 00:55, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Bukowski's father wasn't alcoholic
Bukowski never actually claimed that his father was an alcoholic. He rather despised alcoholic behaviours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.2.38.160 (talk) 14:04, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Kirk Alvaro Lua
Bukowski influenced Kirk Alvaro Lua? Can't google the man in question, it just links to this. I guess he done thing himself, so should I remove it because it is not relevant? Slowgaze (talk) 20:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Bukowski's father was not Polish-American
Bukowski is a Polish surname. That doesn't mean he had recent Polish ancestry. Bukowski's paternal grandmother had a German surname and his paternal grandfather had served in the German army. That information can be found in "Ham on Rye." Obviously there is some Polish ancestry there because of the surname but it's not known how recent. There had been a wave of Polish immigrants to Germany in the mid 19th century. But considering his grandfather served in the Germany army and his mother had a German surname, it seems odd to say Bukowski's father was Polish American. He even corrected a doctor who thought he was Polish in the same book mentioned above.

The fellow who said his father wasn't an alcoholic is correct. It's almost as if the person who wrote the first part of this article didn't read "Ham on Rye." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.251.211.102 (talk) 03:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

German-American father
There has been some dispute recently about how to refer to Bukowski's father. Some of the sources refer to him as an "American serviceman", but apparently in Bukowski's own writings he described him as having had German parents - ie he was "German-American". I recently reverted some changes, and I changed "German-American soldier" to "American serviceman". Even if he was German-American, I think the phrase "German-American soldier" is wrong, as the nation he was serving is the key point of that phrase - he was in Germany as an American soldier. I suggest we need a better way to describe him, making it clear that he was both "German-American", and an "American serviceman" - over to anyone with an idea. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:20, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * We should go with the sources we have. I agree that "German-American Soldier" is misleading and confusing. Let's just go with the source that says he was an American serviceman. I would say that Bukowski's novels are not a proper source, since they are works of fiction (although semi-autobiographical). Father could be described as an "American serviceman of German descent". - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:21, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Critical Reception
I was interested in reading about the critical reception of Bukowski's work. Virtually all notable authors and poets on wikipedia have sections on the reception of their work. I think it would be helpful for Bukowski to have his own. 96.245.128.240 (talk) 12:48, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Is bukowski.net a Fansite?
I don't understand about your saying it's a fan site. Maybe it's because it has "members"? Other included links have forums too but the difference here is only that this one lists its members. None of the other links include remotely as much as this site does. No other site has manuscripts, FBI files, or such an extensive list of poems. Langegg (talk) 19:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Regarding the external link, please see WP:FANSITE, specifically #11. Regarding the IP editing, the reason I bring this up is because you were saying I left a note on your user talk page... but I didn't. The note you're saying I left was on the talk page for an IP address . So, I can only assume you were logged out of your account while editing. Mistakes happen, it's not a big deal. However, please be more careful when you edit to make sure you're logged in with your account because otherwise you're essentially broadcasting your physical location to the general public, and as I mentioned above, it could be construed as a violation of the WP:SOCK policy. Also, it will be confusing for people and for yourself when trying to communicate with others (as you're seeing here). The article already has an existing talk page, so if you want to discuss something about the article, you can add a comment there at the bottom. If you want to communicate directly with another editor, you just add a comment to their user talk page and an orange bar will appear letting them know they have a message. You'll also see the orange bar if someone leaves a message on your user talk page. Hope this helps. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 12:41, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification on editing without logging in. My bad. As far as the rule about fansites: there are lots of entries about editing that talk about rules not being hard and fast. Here are some of the entries:
 * Wikipedia:External links:
 * It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply
 * Is the site content proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)?
 * Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject, one should generally avoid:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided
 * Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means:
 * Wikipedia has many rules. Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution "violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. Similarly, just because something is not forbidden in a written document, or is even explicitly permitted, doesn't mean it's a good idea in the given situation. The principle of the rules is more important than the letter. Editors must use their best judgment.
 * Why isn't "use common sense" an official policy? It doesn't need to be; as a fundamental principle, it is above any policy.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_%22Ignore_all_rules%22_means#Use_common_sense
 * Ignore all rules:
 * If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules
 * My reading of these says that #11 does not have to be followed. It seems to me that because this site has so much information, including manuscripts, that it is a valuable site for someone who reads the Wikipedia entry and wants to know more.
 * A number of external links on the Wikipedia page lead to pages that link to the website: HarperCollins (http://www.harpercollins.com/author/microsite/About.aspx?authorid=1297), Poets.org (http://www.poets.org/poet.php/prmPID/394), BU Today (http://www.bu.edu/today/campus-life/2009/03/25/hanging-with-bukowski-gotlieb-center), Wormwood review (http://www.wormwoodreview.com/links.html) find the site valuable enough to link to it.
 * I just think that the site is "useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc." and would be valuable for someone wanting further information that they can't get in the other links.Langegg (talk) 22:24, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and add it, I am done with this article. Fansites are being added by some and referenced content is being deleted by others. Do whatever you like. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:17, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

The webpage doesn't say anything that I can see about who runs it, founded it or edits it. There is commentary but no referencing or sources given. The home page states " 'I am going to close my web sites down, they embarrass me after seeing bukowski.net.' - Mark Zuckerberg. 'I get all of my ideas from transvestite prostitutes and bukowski.net.' - Lady Gaga." All written in fun, no doubt, but hardly making the case for the site as a reliable source or link. "Anything you see here that contradicts "the official record" is based primarily on information found in letters, first-hand accounts, and other reputable, independently researched, non-government-approved sources. Believe it!" Again it hardly inspires confidence. Other nexus of Bukowski info might signpost to that site but we have different sets of guidelines from poets.org or Harpers. Bukowski.net currently comes up on a UK Google search as the second top hit, so researchers can easily find it anyway.This essay explores what "ignore all the rules" means. It doesn't mean 'flout the guidelines because you don't like them'. Span (talk) 15:20, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I understand the issue thanks to everyone's help. I appreciate you taking the time. Langegg (talk) 18:10, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

By all means, please do remove every reference to bukowski.net from Wikipedia. I would rather it not be associated with this patch of dead weeds and pipe-chewing beard-scratchers. That means you'll have to edit that awesome article though, as it uses bukowski.net as a reference (#10, #11). Also please remove every reference that draws from material they obtained at bukowski.net, which is, hmm, looks like just about every one of them. Get on it, lads! The wiki gods are impatient! Smog.net (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Looks like an at least reasonably (real world) reliable source of information, and more than just a fan site. But it is mysterious and lacks wp:rs credentials, as do many sources in Wikipedia. My opinion: don't ban it from the article, but don't rely heavily on it as a source. North8000 (talk) 12:20, 15 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Your wish is granted. The spam link has been purged from "this patch of dead weeds and pipe-chewing beard-scratchers". Hope you and all the other 14 year old girls enjoy your next Lady Gaga concert! Night Ranger (talk) 06:05, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Why does he have a Polish last name?
Why is he German American if he has a Polish last name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.58.60.198 (talk) 07:16, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Because he's German. He told everyone he was German. His mother was from Germany and his father was from the USA, but had German ancestors. References. Night Ranger (talk) 04:10, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * 1/4 of all ethnic Germans have slavic surnames. It is quite common für Germans to have a slavic surname or at least one grandparent to have one.93.231.190.92 (talk) 11:46, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Additional music refrence needed
The band Modest Mouse has a song called "Bukowski" on thier album Good news for people who love bad news. Teststrip15 (talk) 05:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Section for where he is referenced?
Isn't it a good idea to have a section of artists/movies/musicians that reference him? He has inspired a large amount of songs.

Chiodos (Band) - Bone Palace Ballet (CD) ~ Teeth the size of Piano Keys (Song) Hot Water Music (Band) Senses Fail (Band) - Song: Let it Enfold You Thursday (Band) Song: War All the Time La Dispute (Band) Song: Five The Wonder Years (Band) Songs: Everything I own fits in this backpack, Woke Up Older Modest Mouse (Band) Song: Bukowski — Preceding unsigned comment added by A.B.Dell (talk • contribs) 21:43, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We would need independent evidence that Bukowski is being referred to in the songs, as well as some evidence that those songs are actually notable. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * A new section 'In Popular Culture', I think there's a template for this section. It's quite a common section and is part of many other articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ausphexx (talk • contribs) 22:18, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * As Qwyrxian says above, you would need strong evidence of notability and good sources. Span (talk) 22:51, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Sight Unseen?
Is it correct to use the phrase 'sight unseen' in a Wikipedia article? This idiom is mentioned in relation to Bukowski's first wife and I think it's quite ambiguous. In the context of personal relationships I think it destroys clarity. Can we clarify and illuminate? Espouse elucidation and eschew obfuscation. >:( Sight unseen. It really does create a mirage when we speak using cryptic phrases. Ausphexx (talk) 09:35, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's ambiguous - it means he hadn't met her. It's a common enough phrase. Span (talk) 10:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Relationship with Beat Generation Writers
Bukowski was often labelled as a beat poet It is related in Howard Sounes biography that Charles Bukowski shat his pants when he was in the back seat of a car driven by "On the road" hero Neal Cassady. page 92

Of William Burroughs he said "I could push him over with one punch" page 141

At a party after a benefit reading he declared to Allen Ginsberg "everybody knows that after Howl you never wrote anything worth a shit" page 140

Locked in the Arms of a Crazy Life by Howard Sounes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bukowski:_Locked_in_the_Arms_of_a_Crazy_Life

08:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)08:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)08:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)08:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)08:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)08:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)08:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Quote attributed to him
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid people are full of confidence." I have seen this quote in many places being attributed to Bukowski, yet I have not been able to find a legitimate source verifying he actually said it or where it originated. yonnie (talk) 18:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

POV
There is some POV towards the subject of this article. It promotes his style and story. --Mr. Guye (talk) 22:20, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you be more specific? The Interior  (Talk) 22:46, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Removed the tag since the question was asked and no reply was given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.167.157.235 (talk) 02:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Bukowski's Polish roots?
The last name "Bukowski" is typically Polish. I know that the ending "ski" is generally of Slavic origin, however there is one important thing which is the letter preceding, and it goes like this: As you see, the surname "Bukowski" is clearly of Polish descent. Now, how come there is no sign of Polish roots in Charles's biography? Was his father's family tree unexplored? 78.8.59.44 (talk) 21:15, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * - usky (Belarusian)
 * - vsky (Russian, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Czech, Slovak, Polish)
 * - vskiy (Russian, Ukrainian)
 * - vski (Bulgarian, Macedonian, Polish)
 * - wski (Polish only)


 * We work with reliable sources and what can be verified. Wikipedia articles are written by volunteers, usually using the strong sources they have to hand. The article says: "His paternal grandfather Leonard had emigrated to America from Germany (the present territories of Poland) in the 1880s." Anna (talk) 00:11, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * In order to the address the IP or IPs who have edited the article. There is a consensus on how to deal with the name of city called either Danzig or Gdańsk. You can find it here: Talk:Gdansk/Vote. Since the time in question, namely when Bukowski's grandmother left the city, has been before 1945, the name is as given in the article. Please refrain from editing that. -- Zz (talk) 15:51, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Sure, but we need to mention that it was behind a different countries border when Leonard was born. Anna (talk) 16:16, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * We could say that Charles Bukowski's grandfather from his father's side (Leonard Bukowski) was a germanised Pole and it wouldn't be a lie at all. It is also possible that Charles's grandmother from his father's side was German, living in Germany (today's Polish lands) and probably having some smaller extent of Polish ancestry from Gdańsk (then - Danzig, a German city with high Polish population). As in case of his grandmother it is nothing more than just a hypothesis, his grandfather on the other hand, had to have some Polish roots for sure, as his last name is of pure Polish origin and no ethnic German could have a surname with the "wski" ending. What's about Charles's mother's family, I guess they were of nearly 100% German stock, however there could be also little of Ashkenazi Jewish genetic admixture. Yatzhek (talk) 19:58, 7 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Buk's grandfather Leonard was a Prussian by citizenship when he immigrated to the U.S. He was German-speaking, and so was his family. His family name itself suggests that one of his ancestors has been an ethnic Pole at some level. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.108.92.16 (talk) 19:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Discography
I've tried to add a list of audio recordings released. I'm not sure why it was decided this was not necessary, but if everyone here came up with a sensible reason, feel free to delete or discuss it. The dates are wrong until I can verify them, but unless the list is deleted within the next few days, I'll correct them as I do research. --Torsrthidesen (talk) 07:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120930175046/http://www.oscars.org/press/presskits/nominations/pdf/83aa_franco.pdf to http://www.oscars.org/press/presskits/nominations/pdf/83aa_franco.pdf

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Slight trim to 'In popular culture' section
WikiProject Trivia Cleanup / WikiProject Laundromat / Manual of Style/Trivia sections

I have removed a few items, if there are any that anyone feels are relevant to the page discussing Bukowski, Here is a good place to discuss it.

Aaron Brenneman (talk) 01:47, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Cause of German Economic Problems Post-WWI
The article states that Bukowski's parents left Germany because WWI reparations had caused severe economic problems. The issue/cause of the German economic collapse after WWI is a lot more complicated than that, so I'd like to make this sentence more neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.189.255.44 (talk) 15:44, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Nickname Hank
It’d be nice if it mentioned his nickname and perhaps give a little info about it Friendlyliz (talk) 18:53, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Factual error
The BSP collection in the library of Western Michigan University was bought not from Black Sparrow but from me. I had to been functioning as an editor for the press since the 1970s, and in return John Martin gave me a copy of almost every first edition. -- Seamus Cooney 21:42, 27 May 2021 (UTC)2600:6C4A:7A7F:D225:35EE:67D4:95BF:2751 (talk) 21:42, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Go ahead. Randomly mention that he admired a genocidal maniac
"Bukowski's work was subject to controversy throughout his career, and he readily admitted to admiring strong leaders such as Adolf Hitler and Franklin D. Roosevelt. "

That's all there is to say about him being a Nazi? Not even a citation? 2603:8081:2603:E100:DC23:4914:B14C:F1FC (talk) 04:06, 26 July 2021 (UTC)