Talk:Charles Darwin/Archive 13

Archived
Discussions to 17:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC) archived as resolved or stale, please start a new section if you want to revisit any issues. Thanks, dave souza, talk 17:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Honorifics
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. &mdash;David Wilson (talk · cont) 02:31, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Isaac Newton was actually Sir Isaac. Could someone remedy this? JaiyMaxchill (talk) 12:27, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm. MOS:HONORIFIC says it's allowed, but doesn't explicitly say we have to include it. If we do, Sir John Herschel would also get it post 1831, and Sir Charles Lyell at some date, though the ration appears to be once per article. Probably there are some others Anyone else feel it's necessary? . . dave souza, talk 12:41, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Unnecessary. HiLo48 (talk) 12:51, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * MOS:HONORIFIC also explicitly says that the use of the honorific is "strictly optional" except for the "initial use" and in the infobox heading for the person in question, and that "editors should not add honorific titles to already existing instances of a person's name where it is absent." As I read this guideline, I would take the requirement that the honorific must be used with the initial occurrence of the person's name to apply only to the article about the person in question, although I admit that it's not at all clear that this is so.   Nevertheless, it seems to me that inclusion of the honorific in the Charles Darwin article is not only unnecessary, but actually disallowed until a consensus can be established to change it.  Personally, I would prefer to omit it, but it's not an issue that I can see myself getting all that worked up about if a sufficient number of other editors want it to be included.
 * &mdash;David Wilson (talk · cont) 13:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality
First of all, I am an evolutionist myself, so let it be clear that there's no bias on my part. However, several aspects about the article are an obvious violation of the neutrality expected from an encyclopedia. The phrase "the fact that evolution occurs," for example, is meant purely as a childish challenge towards non-evolutionists, and nothing else. It does not contribute to the quality of the article, offers no information, and will merely serve to increase the schism. The only thing that will be achieved by this is to exasperate non-evolutionists, so that they might not even read further and remain in ignorance about the evolutionary point of view. Many of the people who visit this article may themselves be creationists in doubt of their opinion, and just as they might come to greater open-mindedness, they are put off by the equally biassed opinion of the evolutionists who wrote the article. Whether the theory of evolution is true or not does not matter: as long as we are dealing with theories which are not universally accepted, we should be speaking in terms of these. As long as there are several beliefs, we should, as an encyclopedia, represent each belief. As long as there are people who do not believe a certain theory, we should encourage them to be open to all points of view. This is not a way of "hiding things": removing this does not retract anything from the information offered by the article. On the contrary, by avoiding to take sides, people will be more likely to accept the information we offer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hypernovic (talk • contribs) 20:25, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Evolution is validated by strong evidence, hence fact. Surely people dont need to confirm "some people speculate on the theory that the sky might be above us"...it is obvious, supported by heavy evidence, and in all eyes but the staunch religious minded, mainstream. I for one dont feel the need to state the fact that water is a liquid without having to word it correctly in order to please a minority group who belive that water is a metal.
 * No theory, fact or other, can ever be belived 100%...there will always be those who oppose it. Some people beove the world is flat, some that there is no universe other than earth. If the neutrality balance is changed to suit the stubborn few, then we unbalance it as we are no longer neutral but in bias for the few. It isn't taking sides, but stating the obvious. DarkMithras 31/3/2010


 * "[I}t is obvious" is probably the sort of thing taken issue with here. It is not "obvious" in some objective sense.  If it were, there would be no controversy.  While I agree with you that we can't wait for 100% universal acceptance because no such thing exists, the point is that we cannot treat biological evolution as a truism as long as there is a large and vocal body of people who don't see it that way.  It would be foolish to give a platform to every point of view because every point of view isn't legitimate simply by virtue of its existence.  Scientific consensus is the most reliable point of view when dealing with this scientific topic.  However, this is a question of tone, not content.  The tone reflected in the claim that biological evolution is as plainly obvious to everyone as the liquid, non-metallic (not mutually exclusive properties, mind) nature of water or the relative position of the sky to the Earth (both things that are obvious from simple and basic visual and tactile observation, as opposed to the intensive study of millenia-long trends unobservable to the naked eye) is the sort of provocative arrogance that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article. Prolefeedprocessor (talk) 00:07, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Whether it's obvious or not, we can make necessary assumptions here and leave the debate to the appropriate detailed pages. Also note that "the fact that evolution occurs" no longer appears in the article, the lead has been carefully rephrased after considerable discussion. . dave souza, talk 09:04, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
 * ''Note, the above copied to current talk page to continue discussion after archiving. . . dave souza, talk 09:46, 13 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with your statement that "by avoiding to take sides, people will be more likely to accept the information we offer". This is one of the Founding principles of Wikipedia. However, no theory is "universally accepted". Our policies state that we should represent the main scientific/professional viewpoint, which with regards to this topic is that evolution occurs. There is no serious scientific debate about the occurrence of evolution. While there may be a less complete acceptance in the general public, Wikipedia aims to represent the views on a topic proportionally to its significance to the subject (WP:DUE). Your view "As long as there are several beliefs, we should, as an encyclopedia, represent each belief.", is not strictly true; Wikipedia should only represent those beliefs that have gained coverage in reliable sources, and then reflecting the weight those views receive in those sources. Criticism of the theory of evolution itself is more or less immaterial to this article, a biography. Thus, I believe your tag is unfounded and should be removed.  Intelligent Intelligensium 20:44, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that "Criticism of the theory of evolution itself is more or less immaterial to this article, a biography," so I will spend my energies no further on this. Nonetheless, I do not see the use of objecting full objectivity, and believe it does more harm than good. One note, however: whatever the actual significance of the subjectivity, what bothers me about it is that it very powerfully conveys the intention to convert people to a point of view. This struck me quite strongly when I read it. Even though it does not say that much in itself, because of the reason it was used it will strike creationists as outright insulting. As someone who represents all views and none at all, it did feel just somewhat insulting to me, even though I'm an evolutionist. I wrote more on this on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Evolution_as_theory_and_fact — [ Unsigned .]


 * I have reverted the tag. Most of the arguments are dealt with at Talk:Evolution and its voluminous archives. – ukexpat (talk) 21:11, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Arguments against evolution based on the word theory, implying that it means it is not certain, are spurious. That word is used in many areas of science (relativity is a good example) where the facts demonstrated in that theory are, for all intents and purposes, accepted as the truth as well as it can be demonstrated by science at this time. Use of the word theory does not imply that a totally different, non-scientific explanation of that area of knowledge is seen as possible by scientifically educated people.


 * Full objectivity, as you seem to want to refer to it, would mean giving weight to every creation theory from every religion that has ever existed. The Christian creation view is held by a small percentage of the world's people and has no significance in the science of this.


 * Suggesting that Darwin's discoveries weren't facts is a minority Christian creationist strategy and isn't needed here. HiLo48 (talk) 21:14, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

We do "give weight" to every creation theory in that we write articles about them, even though we don't necessarily believe them to be true. Moreover, the number of creationists, Christian and otherwise, is in fact, sadly, quite huge. According to one study there's just 1.1 billion atheists, agnostics and pagans in the world, compared to 2.1 billion Christians (of course, not all Christians are creationists, but still). Your saying that it's just a small percentage indicates that you live in a relatively atheist environment, and this might give the illusion that creationism is no longer a problem in the world. It certainly is, and we're not going to solve it by infiltrating bias into our every source of information. If none of the sources are truly accessible to these people's minds, they'll remain to terrorized by their fantasies of hell to dare doubt their faith. Either how, fact is, our beliefs don't matter here; only others', cited beliefs, matter in an encyclopedia.

Also, something might be factual, but that doesn't make it acceptable. Technically, according to any dictionary or encyclopedia the God depicted in the Old Testament satisfies all the criteria for a dictator, a mass murderer, a war criminal, and even a fascist, but what if you'd actually use that sort of description in an encyclopedia or dictionary? It would, of course, be unacceptable, but not because it's not factual.

Careful there, before you accuse someone of using "Christian creationist strategies." I strongly loathe Christianity and creationists alike, but loathing is no excuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hypernovic (talk • contribs) 22:19, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * That evolution occurs is a fact, but that's not the theory of evolution. The theory describes how and when and why evolution (change from generation to generation) occurs. So it is not biased to say that it occurs, whether people believe it exists or not. Auntie E. (talk) 01:46, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Also see WP:MNA (making necessary assumptions), which specifically points out that it is not necessary to address the concerns of creationists in articles about evolutionary biology. Just as it is permissable to write articles on NASA that assume that the moon landings really happened or articles on geology and paleontology that assume the earth is thousands of million years old even though there are certain readers who would dispute both those assumptions. Rusty Cashman (talk) 03:44, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

As a quick glance at the archived history of this talk page will show, this topic has been discussed at great length before, without a clear consensus being reached. The key point, it seems to me, is not what is written but the tone in which it is written. Evolution, as currently understood, is the foundation of modern biology; it would be inappropriate to write an article in the biology domain without making this assumption. So it isn't necessary to address the creationist viewpoint in the article – to do so would not be in accordance with WP principles, as has been pointed out very clearly in the discussion above. However Intelligentsium originally made a different point, I think, namely that the tone of the article suggests that its purpose is to teach or even preach and not to inform, as accurately and as neutrally as possible. Writing as one who has made this point before, I think the article is significantly less 'preachy' than it was, but further improvements may well be possible. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:16, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * In my experience, supporters of the conservative Christian creation view of the world (because, really, that is the only lobby relevant to this discussion) don't seek to inform others, nor inform themselves. They preach. What is written in this article is unlikely to affect their views in the slightest. I see no point in this article pandering to a group of people who have no interest in even considering a view different from their current dogma. It should simply present the facts as discovered by Darwin. HiLo48 (talk) 17:36, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

All Wikipedia articles should be unbiased, but neutrality has its limits. Should the article on the Holocaust not make the assumption that the Holocaust actually happened? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Delta G^0 (talk • contribs) 19:06, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * All articles must comply with WP:NPOV policy, and this articles carefully follows that policy. If you have a suggestion for another article, please make it on the talk page of that article. . . dave souza, talk 19:16, 21 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I know it's a bit late, but I agree with the OP. I despise creationism as much as the next guy, but "Suggesting that Darwin's discoveries weren't facts is a minority Christian creationist strategy and isn't needed here," is kind of a ridiculous accusation. Since Darwin's time we've refuted a lot of his ideas, not because he was wrong, but we've made such strides in science that his evolution is quite primitive compared to our views of evolution. Anyways, that's not the point. I don't think the OP is saying that if we say "theory of evolution," we're saying "evolution might not have happened." Evolution is a theory built around many facts. Theories don't become facts; they are disproved by facts or they are supported by facts. 98.198.83.12 (talk) 08:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Evolution is a fact or a series of related facts, the theory explains these facts. Even entievolution creationists commonly acknowledge a degree of evolution, while putting religious limits on what they will admit as being the effects of evolution. . . dave souza, talk 19:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

is this article perfect
if i read this whole pae, will i get a concise view on evolution or what?Jigglyfidders (talk) 16:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you read this page, you'll read a concise biography of Charles Darwin. If you want to learn about evolution, read evolution or introduction to evolution. . . dave souza, talk 17:09, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Olvew, 28 April 2010
The derogatory term "dog-eat dog" should be removed from the sentence "Writers used natural selection to argue for various, often contradictory, ideologies such as laissez-faire dog-eat dog capitalism"

Olvew (talk) 17:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not clear to me exactly what you're objecting to in the use of this term. It's certainly widely used in this context, referring to both capitalism and social darwinism. Mikenorton (talk) 18:27, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I do think that the sentence is 'dubious' - it sounds a bit like original research, unless backed up with ref examples. The whole thing is;

Writers used natural selection to argue for various, often contradictory, ideologies such as laissez-faire dog-eat dog capitalism, racism, warfare, colonialism and imperialism.


 * As I think this warrants further discussion here (leading to consensus to change/leave, I am removing the 'edit semi-protected' for now - pending further input here.   Chzz  ►  18:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Searching on '"dog eat dog capitalism" Darwin', turns up many examples of use similar to that in the article e.g. "Certainly, apologists for dog-eat dog capitalism easily found elements to their liking" from the 'The Cambridge Companion to Darwin' by Hodge & Radick,. Mikenorton (talk) 18:49, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact that there are many examples of this usage elsewhere is not of itself relevant, I think. The issue in Wikipedia is surely whether it is a neutral statement of fact. Can you find a source where someone uses natural selection as an argument to support what they call dog-eat-dog capitalism? I suspect not. The phrase "dog-eat-dog capitalism" is only likely to be used in a hostile way. I can't see what it adds. Why is it not enough just to say ".. such as capitalism, racism, ..."? Peter coxhead (talk) 19:03, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't gave a problem with the neutrality of the term. I just see it as slang and sloppy writing. Not encyclopaedic. HiLo48 (talk) 21:21, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that 'laissez-faire capitalism' is the type of unregulated capitalism that gets known as 'dog-eat dog', so it's probably superflous anyway. Mikenorton (talk) 21:37, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The point of the text (which I don't see above) is that some writers misused Darwin's ideas in various ways, one of which was to advocate that dog-eat dog capitalism was natural and therefore good. Removing the dog description would lose the point. I suppose the solution is to find what a source actually said, and reference that, or as Mikenorton says, the text might be regarded as redundant. Johnuniq (talk) 04:45, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Request to edit the first sentence.
As it currently stands:

Charles Robert Darwin FRS (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882) was an English naturalist[I] who showed that all species of life have descended over time from common ancestors, and proposed the scientific theory that this branching pattern of evolution resulted from a process that he called natural selection.

Please change it to:

Charles Robert Darwin FRS (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882) was an English naturalist[I] who theorized that all species of life have descended over time from common ancestors, and proposed the scientific theory that this branching pattern of evolution resulted from a process that he called natural selection.

This way it is more neutral and scientifically accurate, since there is no definitive proof 'showing' that "all species of life have descended over time from common ancestors." Tdbostick (talk) 21:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC)Tim Bostick 05 June 2010Tdbostick (talk) 21:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


 * No. There are many sources showing that what Darwin said is accepted by the vast majority of scientists. You would be very hard pressed to find a reliable source acceptable to Wikipedia saying otherwise. HiLo48 (talk) 22:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


 * No. This wording has been rejected numerous times. We do not use creationist language that seeks to convey Darwin's work as if he had just some vague ideas, which would be the understanding of "theorized" on the street. &equiv; CUSH &equiv; 11:29, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. I was merely using the wording already within the sentence, scientific theory, to advocate the use of the verb theorized.  There is no way my proposed wording advocates creationism over atheistic evolution.  Perhaps Cush's own religious views, atheism, are influencing his own neutrality.  Science is not a democracy.  If there is doubt in the veracity of a theory, the scientific method demands that those options be explored before asserting something to be 100% true.  Unfortunately this can never happen with evolution vs. creation, because both explanations are inherently religious in nature - one assuming there is no god, and the other assuming there might be.  However, until it is possible to reproduce millions of years of evolution in a laboratory to empirically determine that "all species of life have descended over time from common ancestors," both evolution and creationism will remain theories best suited to the category of religious conjecture.


 * The first sentence of this article is not neutral - a fact now amply demonstrated by three comments to a 4th proposed-change comment. Why don't we conduct a linguistic experiment: change showed to theorized (or proposed for linguistic purists who don't like seeing needless repetition), and see whether or not it raises any more neutrality objections?

Tdbostick (talk) 15:59, 7 June 2010 (UTC)Tim Bostick
 * This has been exhaustively discussed, most recently in November 09. Please, unless there is something startlingly new, let's not start this off again so soon after the last time. May I ask if the proposer has read the previous on this yet?--Old Moonraker (talk) 16:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Additionally, based on this article itself and the history of the evolutionary theory, it is clear that Darwin only touched the tip of the evolutionary iceberg and in no way conclusively demonstrated within his lifetime that evolutionary theory is fact. While it may be argued by most (but not all) scientists that the past 150 years of science have 'shown' evolution to be true, Darwin did not achieve this. Tdbostick (talk) 16:15, 7 June 2010 (UTC)Tim Bostick


 * The consensus of editors is that "showed" is the correct word. You are not bringing any new arguments to the discussion. Go read the old discussion and then maybe you can reply in terms of the effort that has already be devoted to this question. de Bivort 16:19, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I just glanced at the Nov 09 archived discussion. I still believe the word theorize, which is internally consistent with the remainder of the sentence (cf. scientific theory), would.Tdbostick (talk)Tim Bostick —Preceding undated comment added 16:22, 7 June 2010 (UTC).
 * Consensus disagrees with you. Please produce some new arguments backed by relevant and reliable sources, or drop the matter. Johnuniq (talk) 04:03, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've now thoroughly read the discussion in Nov 09 and saw nothing about a suggestion to change showed to theorized. As far as I'm concerned, this matter has not been satisfactorily settled.  Darwin didn't show that one species developed from another any more than modern science can show this in a laboratory.  Both are still well within the realm of theory. Even if 100% of all scientists believed from the bottom of their hearts that all species descended from common ancestors, until they can show it in a scientific experiment, it will remain a theory.  And even if they can show this, Darwin could not.
 * Did you not look here? "Theorized" is one of the many words that was considered and rejected. Also demonstrated in that conversation: that "realized" is common usage in scientific publications when someone provides strong evidence for a hypothesis - would you object to that language? I want to assume you are approaching this discussion in good faith, but until you realize this topic has been covered already, respect that work by prior editors, and advance an argument not already in the previous discussion, rehashing old arguments will get you nowhere. de Bivort 07:54, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I've now read that page. Theorized was rejected by one user, scepticboy, using a poorly-worded, weak argument, based on his own preconceived notions (judging from his username).  "Unrefutable (sic) evidence?"  I happen to personally know tenured professors in the life sciences at the German, state-run university I work for who would disagree strongly with the supposition that either Darwin or modern scientists have irrefutable evidence for the theory of evolution.  Until I see a linguistically sound reason to keep a biased word such as showed and reject a internally consistent word such as theorized (or theorised) to describe what Charles Darwin actually did, I will not let this matter rest.  It's amazing how much bias I have exposed in the editorial board of Wikipedia with this minor editing suggestion.  Tdbostick (talk) 08:32, 8 June 2010 (UTC)Tim Bostick —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tdbostick (talk • contribs) 08:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Voting is evil, but surely in this case we may make an exception: there is only one "vote", among many, for this change; one editor piling on accusations of bias against the "editorial board" isn't going to change that position. Is it time to draw a line under this, to "let the matter rest" indeed? --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:44, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I think I'll rename the Christianity article to Theory of Christianity. HiLo48 (talk) 09:06, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, here are some references supporting my request. Sorry for the slow reaction - I'm a bit new to this.

Keep in mind this is coming from a linguist's point of view, not from a scientist's. Perhaps my ability to not get emotionally involved with something as sensitive as the theory/religion of evolution is to an atheistic naturalist, or the theory/religion of intelligent design is to a theist, helps me see how biased some words are.

Main Entry: the·o·rize Pronunciation: \ˈthē-ə-ˌrīz, ˈthir-ˌīz\ Function: verb Inflected Form(s): the·o·rized; the·o·riz·ing Date: 1638 intransitive verb
 * to form a theory : speculate

transitive verb 1 : to form a theory about 2 : to propose as a theory — the·o·ri·za·tion \ˌthē-ə-rə-ˈzā-shən, ˌthir-ə-\ noun — the·o·riz·er noun

theorize (also theorise) • verb form a theory or theories about something. — DERIVATIVES theorization noun.

Main Entry: show Pronunciation: \ˈshō\ Function: verb Inflected Form(s): showed \ˈshōd\; shown \ˈshōn\ or showed; show·ing Etymology: Middle English shewen, showen, from Old English scēawian to look, look at, see; akin to Old High German scouwōn to look, look at, and probably to Latin cavēre to be on one's guard Date: 12th century transitive verb 1 : to cause or permit to be seen : exhibit  2 : to offer for sale  3 : to present as a public spectacle : perform 4 : to reveal by one's condition, nature, or behavior  5 : to give indication or record of  6 a : to point out : direct attention to  b : conduct, usher 7 : accord, bestow 8 a : to set forth : declare b : allege, plead —used especially in law 9 a : to demonstrate or establish by argument or reasoning b : inform, instruct  10 : to present (an animal) for judging in a show

show verb (past part. shown or showed) 1 be, allow, or make visible. 2 exhibit or produce for inspection or viewing. 3 represent or depict in art. 4 display or allow to be perceived (a quality, emotion, or characteristic). 5 demonstrate or prove. 6 treat (someone) with (a specified quality). 7 explain or demonstrate something to. 8 conduct or lead: show them in, please. 9 (also show up) informal arrive for an appointment or at a gathering. N. Amer. finish third or in the first three in a race.

Based on the above, I would propose that unless someone can show the world that "all species of life have descended over time from common ancestors" with verifiable, scientific experiments, the biased word ought to be replaced with theorized. And experiments showing Drosophila melanogaster evolving into different colored Drosophilae, which are then extrapolated into theoretical changes occurring during a span of millions of years and applied universally to all species, does not count as showing any more than attempting to accurately measure the distance between two stars by extrapolating it from an inchworm's pace. I'd even settle for an experimentally verifiable case of punctuated equilibrium - a swift, dramatic development of one species into another, should something like that even exist. Although to be fair, multiple experimentally verifiable examples of naturally occurring punctuated equilibrium would have to be necessary to make such a bold, universal claim.

Perhaps it's not only the word show which is so biased. That little word all is starting to look much harder to justify. It seems the editors of this article who are too stubborn to allow this article to follow a natural, Wikipedia-style evolution have opened a serious can of worms with their biased, closed-minded approach.

Tdbostick (talk) 14:05, 11 June 2010 (UTC)Tim Bostick
 * @Tdostick
 * "I would propose that unless someone can show the world that 'all species of life have descended over time from common ancestors' with verifiable, scientific experiments"
 * We can. We have. They are publicly available. Please do some research on Evolution. Jess talk cs 14:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow, every one? That was quick. One would think that would have taken ages and ages, especially since scientists have not discovered every species on this earth yet. I remain unbiased on this subject as well, and completely agree with Tdbostick. And if you don't believe my lack of prejudice, I'm both a creationist and evolutionist, so I'm pretty used to differences among beliefs. However, even with a simple reader's point of view, "show" implies that Darwin and his successors have successfully provided the public with proof. Now, this might or might not happen in the future; evolution might or might not exist, despite modern evidence or lack thereof (depending on one's beliefs); and scientists might have made incredible advancements in the way of supporting the theory of evolution, but according to the linguistics of the sentence, the first impression given off by this sentence is that, completely with research and repeated experiments, down to the last bacterium, Darwin revealed to the world the undeniable facts of this component of the theory of evolution. Now, considering the historical revelance...did this happen? Abandoning all personal beliefs, did this really truly happen? Because if it did, I think that modern science would be in a different place right now. Darwin sat and observed life forms and based on his observations formed a hypothesis, which later developed into a theory. Linguistically and historically, show means that when we read Darwin we can see that he has all the facts necessary to prove that all species derive from common ancestors, and theorize means that when we read Darwin we can see that has facts and thoughts (however strong or weak, etc) proposing, offering, that all species derive from common ancestors. Sure, he might have been right, but that doesn't change what happened.


 * Plus, when you use the word "theorize," one who believes in evolution will read the sentence as "Darwin came up with this idea, in which I believe because of the evidence provided by him and subsequent scienctists." One who does not believe in evolution will read the sentence as "Darwin came up with this idea, in which I do not believe." With "show," an evolutionist reads it as "Darwin came up with this idea, in which I believe because of the evidence provided by him and subsequent scienctists." One who does not believe in evolution (or is merely doubtful and looking for personal proof, and such people do exist (hi there)) will read it as "...What? Ok, it's not what I believe, but at least Wikipedia could consider everyone's beliefs and not assume things. Sure there's evidence, but according to the morning news we're still unsure, however vaguely unsure we might be." When the impressions of a sentence are as similar as possible, then an unbiased statement is reached; which one is it? --DMP47 (talk) 00:33, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow. How many times can you use the word believe in one post? Rather than needing to believe in something, real scientists use the ongoing collection of evidence and repeated experiments to find the most likely explanation of something on the balance of probabilities. They do not need to believe.


 * In his 1991 book "The rise and fall of the third chimpanzee" Jared Diamond wrote that "Darwin established evolution was the explanation..." Diamond is a reputable source on this subject. To use the word established would follow Wikipedia rules. (But would no doubt upset Creationists.) HiLo48 (talk) 01:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * @DMP47 Again, you need to do some research on evolution. From actual biologists. Evolution happens. We've seen it. We've reproduced it. Both in natural conditions and in the lab. It is independently verifiable by a host of distinct fields, and is one of the most well supported theories in all of science. To say that it hasn't been proven is both missing the point of science, and ignorant of the vast progress it has made. Jess talk cs 02:03, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * @HiLo48 I think changing the lead to established is a distinct improvement. Despite the ridiculous claims being made by others above, they are (sort of) right about one thing: Showed, in a colloquial context, does imply an exhaustive, visible presentation of an idea. In the intended context, it really means demonstrated, but even that I think is too limiting, in that it implies only work done on active experiments, rather than the theory as a whole. Established rightly gives him credit for founding and popularizing the theory, as well as giving the appropriate impression of having proved (for all reasonable purposes) the hypothesis. Jess talk cs 02:11, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

BTW the word was "realised" for a long time (as in Darwin pulled all the threads together and realised that common descent provided a comprehensive explanation for the extensive observations and data that he had examined). Here is one example of "realised" being misunderstood. Johnuniq (talk) 04:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * This debate is inherently a linguistic one, and based on my citations from the most reputable English language dictionaries above, the obvious choice for the most accurate meaning of the first sentence in this BIOGRAPHY of Charles Darwin is theorised.


 * This quote made me laugh, "Rather than needing to believe in something, real scientists use the ongoing collection of evidence and repeated experiments to find the most likely explanation of something on the balance of probabilities. They do not need to believe." Um, wake up to the real world.  Scientists don't know everything.  Until you become omniscient, you're going to have to believe a few things.  This is perhaps the root of the problem between evolutionists and creationists.  One side thinks they know everything or will soon know everything, and the other side realizes it doesn't know everything and is willing to keep an open mind to other theories.


 * Perhaps life scientists would benefit from a lesson in astrophysics. 95% of the universe is made up of indetectable dark matter and dark energy.  The vastness of human ignorance is, based on that scale, nearly limitless.  Theorizing, without belittling people with religious beliefs, is really all you can do.

Tdbostick (talk) 13:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)Tim Bostick
 * I am reluctant to engage your argument on its own term, since you seem to completely be ignoring the mechanisms by which controversial changes are made on Wikipedia (such as trying to build consensus). However, there is a difference between a "scientific theory" which has the weight of considerable evidence and is widely believed in the scientific community (i.e. theory of gravity) - and to "theorize," which means more or less "hypothesize." Darwin wasn't the first to theorize or hypothesize evolution, he was the first to demonstrate / show that it is true, i.e. provide considerable evidence for it.  de Bivort 14:50, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Established is not a good word in this context.
 * Main Entry: es·tab·lish
 * Pronunciation: \i-ˈsta-blish\
 * Function: transitive verb
 * Etymology: Middle English establissen, from Anglo-French establiss-, stem of establir, from Latin stabilire, from stabilis stable
 * Date: 14th century
 * 1 - to institute (as a law) permanently by enactment or agreement
 * 2 obsolete - settle
 * 3 a - to make firm or stable b : to introduce and cause to grow and multiply 
 * 4 a - to bring into existence : found b : bring about, effect 
 * 5 a - to put on a firm basis : set up  b : to put into a favorable position c : to gain full :recognition or acceptance of 
 * 6 - to make (a church) a national or state institution
 * 7 - to put beyond doubt : prove


 * In the 1800s, Darwin merely theorised that all species descended from a common ancestor. As can be seen by the lengthy discussion this minor edit suggestion has spawned, we still haven't established the law common descent, despite how desperately some people might like to believe in it.  It's still just a theory, when last I checked; and here is my reference for this, taken from the mouth of Wikipedia and all its die-hard naturalist editors: "The last universal ancestor (LUA) (or last universal common ancestor, LUCA), that is, the most recent common ancestor of all currently living organisms,[1] is believed to have appeared about 3.9 billion years ago.[4][5]"  The emphasis is mine.  If the best modern-day scientists can do is believe that we all descend from common ancestors, that clearly puts the theory of evolution into the category of religious speculation.  I wonder if that particular word will get edited out of the article on Common descent?  As of 14 June 2010 at 10:50 EDT, however, the word believed was there.


 * Devibort, I think you're confusing a scientific theory with a scientific law. There are laws of physics, applicable on Earth, which have a huge amount of evidence and mathematical proofs to back them up and establish them.  As a former Artilleryman, we relied on those laws in the form of ballistics to make sure we didn't accidentally hit the wrong targets when shooting something 18 km away that we couldn't see.  Trying to say that a scientific theory is not on par with the process of theorizing is ridiculous.  Read a dictionary - I've provided ample sources above.


 * I'm not trying to debunk the theory of evolution - just it's one unfortunately bold, outlandish claim that we all descend from one common ancestor and that the entire process can be accomplished naturally with absolutely no manipulation from an outside intelligence. Of course evolution occurs.  Of course natural selection occurs.  But it happens on very small scales.  Sure, brilliant scientists who have spent years getting their PhDs and conducting research can manipulate one species into changing into another, but that sounds a lot like intelligent design.  Chuck a petri dish filled with Escherichia coli against a wall, and see if it can evolve all by itself into a different species.  Then maybe we can talk about Charles Darwin establishing something.Tdbostick (talk) 15:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC)Tim Bostick
 * Interesting choice, were you thinking of E. coli long-term evolution experiments? . dave souza, talk 11:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Your understanding of "scientific theory" is just wrong. See Scientific theory esp the section on Scientific Laws. Like I said, I don't want to be drawn into a point by point discussion with you, since you are ignoring the required process to make controversial changes to articles. To reiterate for a third time, if you can find reliable external sources using the word "theorized" and they are better/more prominent that sources that use language like showed or demonstrated then you'll have a shot at getting your language into the article. de Bivort 15:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Tdbostick, please read Objections to evolution. Everything you've said is covered there. More pertinently, do any other editors have any legitimate objection to using established in the lead? Jess talk cs 15:30, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * No objection. de Bivort 15:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Referencing the aforementioned Wikipedia article: under the "History of Objections" section, "When Charles Darwin published his 1859 book On the Origin of Species, within fifteen to twenty years he convinced most of the scientific community that evolution through common descent was true, but while most accepted that natural selection was a valid and empirically testable hypothesis, his view that it was the primary mechanism of evolution was generally rejected.[2]"
 * How exactly did Charles Darwin in 1859 establish a theory when much of it was rejected? Pardon my ignorance of the exact definition of scientific theory; I had no idea theory had strayed so far from its dictionary form when used in this sort of terminology.  However I'm trying to reach a neutral word everyone can accept - both naturalist and creationist alike.  Establish is even more controversial and ignores even more science and history.  I've already cited how Common Descent is a belief and how Darwin's theory, at the time of his writing it, was quite incomplete and even rejected by many of his peers.


 * Just pick a less controversial word for this article, and this discussion will end. Examples: theorised, put forth, posited, believed, etc.  I guarantee if you pick the word established, you'll create even more controversy.134.176.158.37 (talk) 16:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC)Tim Bostick
 * Again, you're ignoring procedure by not providing external references. You may also want to read up on the make the necessary assumptions policy. E.g. articles on biblical history don't need to acknowledge that Jesus may or may not have actually existed, they can "make the necessary assumption" that he did. Similarly, there is no need to challenge the validity of evolution in article on its primary discoverer. de Bivort 16:21, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * @134.176 We're not proposing that Darwin established common ancestry in 1859. We're proposing that he established it with his work. There's no mention of a date in the lead, so I see no reason to be overly restrictive.
 * @Everyone else: I'm going to make the change to established, since I've seen only support for it thus far. Hopefully the change will draw in others who are watching the page, but dropped out of the discussion due to all the nonsense above. <span style="border:1px solid #95ad5b;font-family:Copperplate;font-size:125%;padding:1px 5px 3px 7px;background:#dac9d4;color:#86747E">Jess talk cs 16:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughtful consideration of the issue, I'm happy with both "showed" and "established", and the latter has advantages. It covers the point that "Darwin convinced most of the scientific community within 15-20 years that descent with modification, or evolution, was true", to cite one of many sources covering this point. His work shifted the scientific consensus to supporting evolutionary explanations of species being formed through natural laws, as had been previously proposed by others, and acceptance of the relatively novel idea of common descent. However, the same source clarifies a point that Tdbostick (aka 134.176) seems to have misunderstood, "many rejected natural selection as the primary mechanism". Darwin's theory of natural selection wasn't widely accepted within his lifetime, but his work firmly established evolution through common descent in science. . dave souza, talk 17:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I find "established" fine; whether he established a theory or a fact is not specifically mentioned in the rest of the sentence, so I think it's good enough for everybody. I hope this is resolved soon; not every other article on Wikipedia is perfect. Ah, the intrigue of science... --DMP47 (talk) 22:51, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, science is intriguing. Sadly, some people see it as a threat. HiLo48 (talk) 23:40, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Section break

 * Here are the corresponding sentences in other languages on Wikipedia on the Charles Darwin page where it mentions his theory of common descent:


 * German- "Bereits 1838 entwarf Darwin seine Theorie der Anpassung an den Lebensraum durch Variation und natürliche Selektion und erklärte so die evolutive Entwicklung aller Organismen und ihre Aufspaltung in verschiedene Arten."
 * Translation- In 1838 Darwin had already drafted his theory of the adaptation of the biotope through variation and natural selection and thereby explained the evolutionary development of all organisms and their branching out into various kinds.
 * It's a little longwinded and convoluted, but that's just how German is. At least it's neutral.


 * Spanish- "Charles Robert Darwin (12 de febrero de 1809 – 19 de abril de 1882) fue un naturalista inglés que postuló que todas las especies de seres vivos han evolucionado con el tiempo a partir de un antepasado común mediante un proceso denominado selección natural."
 * Translation- "Charles Robert Darwin (Feb. 12th 1809 - April 19th 1882) was an English naturalist who postulated that all species of living beings have evolved through time from a common ancestor by means of a processes called natural selection."
 * Again, nice and neutral.


 * Latin- "Carolus Robertus Darwin (Anglice: Charles Robert Darwin ; Salopiae die 12 Februarii 1809–Cantii 19 Aprilis 1882) biologus, palaeontologus, et zoologus Anglicus, theorias hodiernas evolutionis et descensus communis via selectione naturale proposuit."
 * Translation- "Carolus Robertus Darwin (English: Charles Robert Darwin; born on the 12th of February 1809 - died on the 19th of April 1882), an English biologist, palaeontologist, and zoologist, proposed the modern theory of evolution and common descent via natural selection."
 * Short, concise, and neutral.


 * These are all the foreign language pages I can understand relatively well, but I'm sure there are many others about Charles Darwin that are equally balanced. I find it really sad that I cannot find that kind of neutrality on the page in my mother tongue.  I guess I'll have to refer to English-language Wikipedia pages as a last resort, since neutrality isn't truly taken seriously here.


 * Debivort, I've provided many external references and a few to other Wikipedia pages. There are a dozen on this discussion page from me - three right here in this most recent edit.


 * HiLo48, I don't find science to be a threat. Science is the search for truth, and I am adamant about the truth being discovered and told.  I love astronomy and paleontology and enjoy my work here at the Justus Liebig University in Germany, proofreading and translating papers about parasitology and biochemistry.  I'm just thankful that the real scientists I work with don't even waste their time and precious research grant money trying to further "prove" controversial theories but instead work toward realistic goals - the eradication or inhibition of apicomplexan parasites and the diseases they cause.  I've already wasted enough of my time trying to make this page neutral.  It's time to go back to something useful.Tdbostick (talk) 09:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)Tim  Bostick
 * Ah, apicomplexan parasites and the diseases they cause, such as malaria. Given your references to intelligent design, you might be interested in this review and ensuing discussion. One of several related topics. However, your idea of "neutral" doesn't seem to be the same as the meaning of WP:NPOV policy, which does not give undue weight or "equal validity" to fringe or pseudoscientific views. . . dave souza, talk 11:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Let's all be civil. "Postulated" might also be good; the German line is absolutely neutral. If we could shorten it and/or blend it with what we have, it would be effective and informational (because that's what Wikipedia is for, right?). --DMP47 (talk) 20:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Neutral does not mean giving equal (or any) weight to fringe views. HiLo48 (talk) 21:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I suppose a better way to phrase it is: it certainly Tdbostick's argument, and might possibly satisfy yours. Depending on who's reading it; I think it leans toward your argument with the line "and thereby explained," but there is the usage of "theory," about which I am unsure. --DMP47 (talk) 23:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Established is better than postulated, as the former implies the latter, adding additional details about its impact and acceptance. The only objections I see raised in opposition are anti-evolutionary, for which this article is not the place. <span style="border:1px solid #95ad5b;font-family:Copperplate;font-size:125%;padding:1px 5px 3px 7px;background:#dac9d4;color:#86747E">Jess talk cs 23:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * As the various sources show, Darwin was by no means the first to put forward ideas of evolution, or even of common descent (though many transmutationists such as Lamarck or Grant postulated parallel lines of descent from monads). The difference was that "Darwin's name is so linked with evolution because his works convinced the international scientific community that evolution was true. In the two decades after the publication of Origin the great majority of the scientific community came to accept that Darwin was right about the evolution of life. But natural selection was often not accepted." The "it's only a theory" and "controversy" arguments are commonly used to promote intelligent design creationism, and do not reflect the clear majority scientific and historical views which are appropriately given due weight in this article. . . dave souza, talk 07:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems to me the only references to intelligent design or creationism are in the paranoid comments and reactions from some users to my request to make this autobiography a little more neutral. I'm not interested in promoting intelligent design, but I'm not about to just dismiss it outright because it conflicts with my world-view as the aforementioned editors have already done.  Naturalistic evolutionists are quick to call any viewpoint from a supernatural or religious perspective a fringe view, however the 2.2 billion Christians and 1.4 billion Muslims (more than 50% the world's population) might have a different opinion on what constitutes a fringe view.


 * In fact these editors' readiness to jump to such wild conclusions and eagerness to dismiss any view other than their own clearly shows just how biased this page is. Trying to answer essentially religious or philosophical questions (such as: "Is there or is there not a designer/creator/God?," and "How did matter, energy, and life come about?") with the scientific method is like trying to fish for a whale in a creek.  You're never going to catch one and might come to the conclusion that the whale doesn't exist.  In other scientific disciplines, scientists readily try to exchange incomplete theories with new and improved ones.  Physicists have been hard at work trying to replace Einstein's theory of relativity (which in turn improved upon Newton's theories) with a more comprehensive unified theory for many years and have met with far less resistance from the proponents of relativity than skeptics of Darwinian evolution encounter from evolutionists.  And what is the reason for this?  Physicists aren't trying to answer religious questions - just trying to explain the mechanics of the physical universe as it currently exists.  Evolutionists and proponents of intelligent design are attempting to find answers to religious questions.  One side is trying to prove there is no designer, the other side is trying to prove there is.  Since this is the state of the world we're in, this biography of the first scientist to attempt to answer this religiously-charged question out to be a little more balanced.  How about replacing the word established with explained or said?  Can't get much more neutral than those.Tdbostick (talk) 14:34, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * @Tdbostick Please see WP:NOTFORUM. You've been directed to this before. A huge chunk of your last post is wild ramblings on conspiracy theories and bias. This isn't the place for that. Take it up with scientific journals or something. As for your last sentence: We can't replace established with said, because Darwin isn't known for having said anything... he's known for establishing natural selection as a major mechanism of the evolution, and establishing the theory of evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life. He wasn't the first to say it, and if he hadn't established both, we wouldn't be here talking about him now. <span style="border:1px solid #95ad5b;font-family:Copperplate;font-size:125%;padding:1px 5px 3px 7px;background:#dac9d4;color:#86747E">Jess talk cs 15:46, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

@ Tdbostick, regarding paranoia, the first reference to intelligent design in the above thread is in your post at 14:05, 11 June, and you went on about it some more in your post of 15:12, 14 June. Your choice. "Evolutionists" aren't "trying to prove there is no designer", it's simply that a designer or deity is irrelevant and unnecessary when examining the science of evolution. You don't seem to realise that science is secular. @ Jess, natural selection wasn't established as a major mechanism in Darwin's lifetime, and by the 1880s only a few scientists agreed with him about its importance. However, by then it was well established that some sort of evolution was happening, thanks to his work. The eclipse of Darwinism is rather interesting on the former point, I think we've covered it here reasonably well. . dave souza, talk 17:09, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * One could quite validly study evolution without ever having heard of religion. Only the religious think it's a religious issue. And to claim that the "2.2 billion Christians and 1.4 billion Muslims" all oppose the evolutionary view of things shows bias in the greatest extreme. HiLo48 (talk) 19:40, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * @Dave While the point is moot, since the current wording is appropriate regardless... my intention is not to state that evolution or natural selection were necessarily established within Darwin's lifetime. I don't know if they were. However, it is clear that his work was the foundation on which both were established, and that their establishment is what he is now known for today. The lead doesn't specify a time period, so artificially restricting it to his lifetime seems inappropriate. Whenever consensus arose, it did, and that's Darwin's claim to fame. <span style="border:1px solid #95ad5b;font-family:Copperplate;font-size:125%;padding:1px 5px 3px 7px;background:#dac9d4;color:#86747E">Jess talk cs 21:15, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Jess, that's a good point. Simply that it's fascinating for me how his work and indeed his respectability as an established scientist of repute precipitated a relatively swift acceptance of the principles of evolution and common descent, but for over 50 years various more or less contradictory mechanisms gained more credence than natural selection, as is mentioned in the article. The evolution of scientific thought, so to speak. . dave souza, talk 21:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Tdbostik has repeatedly failed to provide reliable sources to support his change. He writes definitions without providing sources.  He uses Wikipedia pages in other languages as sources while providing translation.  If he is indeed a linguist, he well understands that words in one language don't convey the same meaning in another.  He confuses atheism with the theory of evolution, Christianity with creationism.  He has demonstrated a marked ignorance in the definition of scientific theory and theorize.  No other editors are supporting his argument.  Tdbostik has demonstrated dishonesty, ignorance, and unwillingness to follow Wikipedia guidelines.  I also don't know why he refers to this article as an autobiography.  I do not believe the article should be changed. Jojuko (talk) 03:20, 11 July 2010 (UTC)