Talk:Charles Etienne Boniface

Boer music
If you read the article, it states ''A large volume of Boer music was consequently composed by local musicians, as is still the case today. There where[sic] [were?] also music teachers who noted down local tunes. The first person to do this was Charles Etienne Boniface (1787-1853) who arrived in the Cape on February 1807.''

It does not say that Boniface recorded Boer music per se, just that he recorded local music which might well have included music from the Cape Coloured community – a community that outnumbered the white community and which had its roots in the East Indies, rather than in Europe. Martinvl (talk) 06:44, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Opening line
The page Manual of Style/Biographies lays down what is expected in the first line of a Wikipedia biography. The page states "'' Birth and death places should be mentioned in the body if known, and in the lead if they are relevant to the person's notability; they should not be mentioned within the opening brackets. Therefore the words "in Paris" should be removed from the opening brackets.

The page also cross-references WP:DOB where the examples only show the word "born" for living people. Therefore the words "born" and "died" should both be removed from the opening bracket. Martinvl (talk) 07:10, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Changes to Early life
I have reinstated some of the earlier material concerning Boniface's early life and added some additional citations. In particular Martinvl (talk) 07:01, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * He arrived in the Cape in 1807, not 1806. The University of Vienna citation stated that the Cape passed back into British hands in 1806, but makes no mention of when Boniface arrived. The St Andrews citation details his arrival.
 * The original bit about the Seychelles was correct, the changes made by the previous editor were incorrect - see History of Seychelles and the new citation.
 * The exact text from the University of Vienna reads "In 1806 word die Kaapkolonie weer Engels en Boniface besluit om daarheen te gaan. Hy verlaat Suid-Afrika nooit weer nie." - Translation (literal): "In 1806 the Cape Colony became English again and Boniface decided to go there. He never left South Africa." Martinvl (talk) 19:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Charles-Etienne or Charles Etienne?
Where did the hyphen in Charles-Etienne come from? Martinvl (talk) 07:01, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I have removed the hyphen. Martinvl (talk) 19:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)


 * This web page had a copy of an advertisement that Boniface placed in the South African Directory Advertiser. In it, he styles himself “C.E.BONIFACE”, not “C-E. BONIFACE”.   This web page contains a copy of the text of the ‘’ De Nieuwe Ridderorde of De Temperantisten’’.  A few pages into the book, you will see Boniface’s signature – he signed “C.E.Boniface” with very clear dots after the C and the E. He did not sign “C-E. Boniface” .  To me, this is a clear indication that he did not use a hyphen in his full name.  Martinvl (talk) 20:13, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Sections
The page WP:Layout states "Very short or very long sections and subsections in an article look cluttered and inhibit the flow of the prose." The section structure introduced by User:Up and in created a number of very short sections, so I have recreated the original section layout. Moreover, Up and in's section "Writings" referenced a play and should, under his scheme, have been grouped with other plays, rather than in a section on its own. Also, his journalistic career included his work in Natal. Martinvl (talk) 07:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Restored to previous title. The correct method though, is to revert and then discuss. Apteva (talk) 17:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Charles-Etienne Boniface → Charles Etienne Boniface – This request is to revert a move made by User:Up an in without discussion. I tried to use the automatic procedure, but since the original article exists, I was denied permission.

The rationale behind my reversion is:
 * User:Up an in failed to provide a single instance of Boniface using a hyphenated name. He did not even acknowledge my request on the talk page for such justification (request was here).
 * In a pamphlet in which Boniface advertises his business, he writes his initials as "C.E."
 * He signed his with initials "C.E." (This citation is a facsimile of a play that he wrote - his signature appears on the first page after the coverplate below the text "Geen Exemplaar wordt voor echt erkend waarin men de onderstande handteekening van de Auteur niet vindt" (Translation: "No reproductions are recognised as being genuine unless they bear the signature of the author"). Martinvl (talk) 07:21, 24 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The hyphen should be kept as it is the traditional and conventional form of the name used in France, and Boniface was French-born.
 * 95% of Google hits for "Charles Etienne" on the .fr top level domain show the hyphen.
 * The BBC use the hyphen in their report on Boniface's book.
 * St Andrew's University, discussing their work on the Boniface book, uses the hyphen.
 * That Boniface used "C.E." in his signature in that one example is not evidence that he didn't use the hyphen when writing his name in full - Jean-Baptiste Lamarck is often referred to simply as J.B.P.A. Lamark, including in a facsimile of one of his own books.
 * Up and in (talk) 18:40, 24 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:COMMONNAME. In it you will see "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural".  Most of the English-language sources that I have come across do not use the hyphen and more importantly, neither does the Virtual International Authority File for Boniface here.  If you look at the article, you will see a box at the bottom of the page with the words "Authority Control". This give an overwhelming authority to use the name in English without the hyphen. Martinvl (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Support – Yes the hyphen is common in France, but he was mostly not in France, and the hyphen is seldom or never used in his name, at least in English sources. Dicklyon (talk) 21:48, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:BRD - though out of interest Martinvl, why do you think VIAF is reliable? (even if no WP:BRD would still have supported since all Google Books since 2000 show the name being treated as Afrikaans, no hyphen, no accent) In ictu oculi (talk) 01:17, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't regard VIAF as "reliable" in the normal sense of the word, but rather being the "accepted" form of the name for indexing purposes. Martinvl (talk) 05:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - I am persuaded by the arguments of Dicklyon and In ictu oculi. I was not aware of the BRD convention and now realise that we should be using the spelling/punctuation prevailing in the English-language literature . I withdraw my opposition. Up and in (talk) 06:23, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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