Talk:Charles Haughey

Family Background
Someone edited it to take out the part about Haughey's family home being burnt. The footnote to that dubious claim refers to the BBC obituary. In all likelihood, the Wikipedia entry was the source for the BBclass=B, C writer as the claim was made in the free encyclopedia before Haughey died. It would be extremely naive to assume that the BBC provides nothing but the facts. I also doubt the claim because the buildings were very primitive and would not have been worth burning. Also, the Haughey's didn't have a home as Haughey's father was raised by his grandmother, who was a Kane, maiden name Heaney. She was a younger sister of my great-grandfather. My great-grandfather was found dead in a ditch around the same time, 1923. He was an American citizen but came back at the end. ''== Correct; furthermore, they didn't move directly to Castlebar from Swatragh. Can you please email me to discuss Haugheys and O'Kanes. Looks like you and I are related...''--Angrianan 19:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

He was also related to the poet. Some articles have described Haughey's family as being from a slum but they were from the same area as Heaney, which he has often described. (I assume Haughey and Heaney are related but in that area probably lots of people are.)

I believe Heaney has described bodies being found in the area at the time. It's difficult to know how many because many because many just fled and there wasn't much communication at the time. Heaney wrote a poem Whatever you say Say Nothing, which is sort of typical of the area. Heaney has himself avoided talking about it much. The British government had lots of power so there wasn't much chance to say much until after WW2 and by then there weren't many who remembered. My grandmother was the youngest and lived the longest but I asked her one time and she said she didn't know anything about it. I believe Charles Haughey called her around the time his father died and she must have known something about him. She called him Johnny. They were about the same age although she was actually a generation ahead.

My grandmother left shortly before her father died and there was no one else left on the farm. Her sister came to the US with Haughey's uncle James Haughey and another cousin, Barney O'Kane, who died falling off a building fighting a fire for the NYFD on Christmas in 1927. They barely made it to the US as they beat the Titanic by one day. Probably they didn't take it cause they couldn't afford it. They had less than $15 each. The records are all in the Elis Island site. C.J. Haughey's grandmother lived in New York.

When I was kid we throught of Irish people as being poor, and that was when Haughey was first in power. I don't know if he was a nice guy, but it seems he was trying to change the image of the country by showing lots of class. This might be sort of American. He believed in it when other people were bailing out. Literally most of his money problems were related to real estate debt that eventually made him rich. So then they say he was poor and he got rich. Well, that's what happens when you borrow money to buy real estate that jumps in value. Of course, Irish people like to begrudge.


 * Not commenting on any of the above apart from "Well, that's what happens when you borrow money to buy real estate that jumps in value." Yes, but it certainly helps it to jump in value when a county council just randomly happens to decide your land will just happen to get public sewerage pipes and water mains put in.  Purely coincidence, of course, that the owner is a powerful politician... Bastun 13:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I would think if they're going to subdivide Abbyville they would have to put in new pipes. This is the sort of typical nonsensical Irish compliant. Haughey's not the only one to benefit from the real estate run up. He likely would have ended up rich if he never got into politics at all, assuming the country turned out the same way. The types of real estate transactions he did were actually pretty simple compared to what happens every day in the US. Have you ever seen the movie Chinatown? It's based on the true story of how Los Angeles was created. A more example is the Irvine Ranch, which was founded by an Irish family. The last Irvine died supposedly of suicide in the 1960's, but many suspect he was murdered. He was also a big investor in Las Vegas, which is how he got involved with the Mafia. I haven't heard of Haughey murdering anyone. Considering how his family was treated he could have called it fair play.
 * How was his family treated? --Ryano 09:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I work in Irvine, didn't know they were Irish, where can I find more background info?--Rye1967 23:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What is this stuff about putting in new pipes at Abbeville? Among the planning difficulties with developing the area is the fact that it's on the approach path into Dublin Airport, where higher density housing is restricted.  JXM 18:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

@anonymous contributor: the point about the pipes is that when it was done, there was "no question" (heh) of the land being used for housing. The fact that it had the effect of vastly increasing the value of the land, were it ever to be rezoned for housing, for example, was, I'm sure entirely unforeseen... @User:Jxm The putting in new pipes is a matter of record and was referred to in the Dáil. Then of course Manor Park bought the place and we got this.


 * I guess my question was related to how/whether we should address this whole Abbeville planning issue in the CJH article. Perhaps it merits a separate article....??   JXM 23:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone check about Haughey in a written biography etc about the Londonderry connection (I have checked on the oireachtas debates and can find nothing; then again nothing much on the Mayo connection either). This Londonderry connection is simply too important in the potential shaping of the man to ignore; an insight to his ego and drive - his highs and lows. Haughey and Northern Ireland were quite controversial (Arms Trial, Taoiseach, Northern Ireland Peace Process); he made controversial speeches on Northern Ireland and if his parents came from Londonderry than this is simply too important to ignore because an anon editor wants to censor the word Londonderry. Many people crossed borders in the partition of Ireland. Djegan 18:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

They wouldn't have called it Londonderry. It's well know his father's family was from Swartragh. I'm not sure about his mother exactly. This was a controversial issue because he didn't want to be too associated with the North and his family in the North could have been in danger. My grandmother wouldn't talk about it when I asked her and that was in the 1980's. Seamus Heaney wrote a poem "Whatever you say, say nothing", which is what they say in the North. Heaney has avoided talking about the issue also.


 * What they called it is irrelevent. Djegan 14:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Tribunals?
It's incredible that there's nothing here at all about his appearances (and non-appearances) at the various tribunals, and, indeed, his overall corruption. Details on the 'gifts' he received are very scant - Ben Dunne, etc., the Charvet shirts, et al. Bastun 11:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Could a separate article be the way forward. The article is currently very long and I am not sure that furture material could easily be integrated? Djegan 20:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Picture
Is it possible for anyone find a picture of Haughey and add it to the information table?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/840000/images/_844907_haughey_150.jpg

Chartered Accountant
To say that Charles J. Haughey qualified as an accountant while at University is inaccurate. In fact, he trained, successfully passed the examinations of and became a member (subsequently a Fellow) of The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland. This would have necessitated a training/work study period of 3 years in the firm of an established Chartered Accountant, subsequent to graduation. The relationship of Chartered Accountant and Trainee was then known by the somewhat Dickensian terms of "Principal" and "Articled Clerk."

Similarly, to write that he worked for the firm of Haughey Boland is understating the case. As the name would suggest, he and his partner, Boland, founded and managed the firm within the legal structures of The Partnership Act. In fact, one of the reasons that Charles Haughey has given for his enormous wealth is that he was a successful Chartered Accountant. However, he would have needed to be the most successfull Chartered Accountant in Irish history to have amassed such wealth from his practice.

"Irish mourn colorful ex-PM Haughey"
Why on earth do media in the UK and USA refer to our Taoiseach's as Prime Ministers? It may be seen as a small thing, I know, but it really annoys me. Why can't they give them their proper mode of address? Fergananim 12:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Because Taoiseach is an Irish word and they're speaking/writing in English? When you're speaking about, say, Angela Merkel, do you call her Chancellor?  Or by her correct title in German: Kanzler? Bastun 12:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

doh ! incredible to think people cannot figure out that we're speaking English here.


 * So you talk about Dominique de Villepin being the Premier Ministre de la France, then, rather than being the French Prime Minister; or Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri Romano Prodi instead of Italian Prime Minister? Bastun 13:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Execpt of course Taoiseach doen't mean prime minister - it means leader, chief or cheiftain as far as I'm aware. Therefore, refering to an Irish Taoiseach as a prime minister is incorrect (although the modern irish office of cheiftain does its true corresponed to that of prime minister)!;) Paddy


 * The difference is that Taoiseach is now an accepted word in English and used by among others the President of the United States, the Prince of Wales, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and many others. Kanzler and Premier Ministre de la France in contrast have never moved from the native language to English. If taoiseach was only a word used in Irish then the argument would have some validity. But as it is one of those crossover words (like craic, Dáil, Seanad, Éire) that is now used in both Irish and English the argument falls flat. BTW when the office was first created the Irish media all called the office-holder "prime minister". It was only in the 1940s that "taoiseach" caught on, in contrast to "uachtarain" which never did in English and is still ghettoised in Irish. FearÉIREANN [[Image:Map of Ireland's capitals.png|15px]]\(caint)|undefined 22:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The U.S. President, Prince of Wales, et al, will of course use the term 'Taoiseach' because a) it is the correct term; and b) they have protocol people whose job it is to inform them of the correct title. By contrast, the media will use the term most understandable to their audience.  Correct?  Probably not.  A slur or insult?  Nope.  Certainly not intentionally, anyway. Bastun 09:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Makes perfect sense to me - the media outside Ireland aren't assuming that their audience know everything. Autarch 17:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Also the term Prime Minister or Priomh Aire in Irish was actually a post in the 1918 Dáil that eventually became the Presidency. The title Prime Minister actually refers to a previous post so to refer to the Taoiseach as Prime Minister is like calling the German Chancellor the Fuhrer.

Whilst not attempting to encourage the use of prime minister, particularily that hideous "Irish Prime Minister", none-th-less article 28.5 of the constitiution makes it clear the Taoiseach is the Prime Minister:
 * The head of the Government, or Prime Minister, shall be called, and is in this Constitution referred to as, the Taoiseach.

Djegan 22:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Quite right, Descriptively he was the "Prime Minister" but should be described as "Taoiseach", I.e. Prime Minister being the Adjective, Taoiseach being the Noun.

Stabilo boss 12:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatever else it is, "Prime Minister" is most certainly not an adjective. This discussion has become curiously circular: the term Taoiseach should be used more often in English, because of its existing usage in English? And contains en route some pretty sweeping assumptions: the American media is being xenophobic in not using "Taoiseach", but isn't in not using "Kanzler"? (My impression is the UK and Irish media more often use "the German Chancellor", which surely gets partial credit as opposed to "PM".)

Insofar as this has relevance to this and related articles; one could certainly make the argument that "taoiseach" is indeed much the more common term in Hiberno-English (or more to the point, formal English as used in Ireland), and articles pertaining specifically to Ireland should use that as their metric of "most common term in English", but clarity would really argue in favour of also including the prevalant usage outside of Ireland (if only parenthetically). It's against the spirit of WP usage guidelines to argue that the BBC, Guardian, and NYT will say "prime minister", but such usage must be completely expunged here, on the basis of inaccurate arguments about "incorrectness", or more to the point because it offends people's sensibilities. (I notice that the intro of Taoiseach article avoids introducing the term "Prime Minister" as explanation or synonym, but tangentially mentions "the Tánaiste (the title of the deputy prime minister)", though I'm much more inclined to believe this is usual wikipedia cockup than systematic doublethink.) If this is just generalised complaints about the foibles of assorted media organisations, then sympathies, but don't get me started on "RTEisms". Alai 23:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's just general complaints about the media, I think. Noone is suggesting changing the article. Bastun 09:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

75 edits in 10 hours
Is that really worth including, and, doesn't that violate NOR? 68.39.174.238 20:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The Arms Trial
The article is totally incorrect with respect to its characterisation of this event. If one recalls a recent RTÉ investigation using released official documents and army files, it is clear that the activity was legally sanctioned and in particular the military records imply Jack Lynch was aware of the activity. On the particular program in question members of the Arms Trial Jury were interview and stated that it was because the action was sanctioned that they acquitted Haughey etc. It is also note worthy that recently the name of one of the military personnel involved was restored by comments given in the dáil. Justin Keating who was involved - if memory serves - in the dáil's investigation into the financial element of the affair indicated when shown the new evidence that indeed he would conclude that the "arms affair" was sanctioned by the minister with appropriate authority.

cf. http://www.politics.ie/wiki/index.php?title=Jim_Gibbons which deals with the history of the minister in charge.

Disputed
The description of the arms crisis is both superficial and wrong.


 * Haughey was not seen as a hawk. He was seen either as in the middle or a dove. (Most people presumed that, given his fierce anti-IRA stance as Minister for Justice.) There was general shock when he was seen associated with Blaney and Boland.


 * The description of who went to trial where is wrong. One of the cases collapsed at a lower court. I haven't the time to do the research but if no-one else does it, when I get a chance I'll correct it.

Overall, this article is rather weak and superficial. It relies far too much on media reports and not enough on more credible book sources. Knowing Wikipedia, it will evolve in time into a good article, but right now it is littered with superficial judgments and presumptions that are more myth than reality. (Saying that Haughey was seen as a hawk in the 1960s is a serious misunderstanding of reality.) I'd suggest readers look as Ryle Dwyer's books on CJH, and of course on Joyce and Murtagh's The Boss. I'll do what I can to help tweak this article. I've rewritten parts and sourced statements, as well as adding in a booklist. FearÉIREANN \(caint)|undefined 00:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is way too long and contains too much inappropriate detail
This article will never be taken seriously unless you write it like an article that belongs in an encyclopedia.

All articles must meet notability standards and verifiability standards as well as citing reliable sources.Also, no original research is allowed per WP:OR. Check these policies out as well as WP:CITE and WP:RS meantioned above. Mattisse(talk) 14:20, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

absolutely!! my first step will be to eliminate the long lists of cabinet members, and replace them with links to govmnt listings elsewhere. aside from their minor relevance, duplication is a maintenance nightmare. JXM 22:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent anonymous edits
Recent edits by a user with the IP address 62.77.178.44 have introduced a lot of POV material into the article, however I'm reluctant to revert them wholesale as they have simultaneously removed a lot of existing POV material! --Ryano 10:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Belfast visits
"In April 1990, Haughey became the first Taoiseach since Lemass[citation needed] to visit Belfast, where.." Where is this asserted?

Surely Fitzgerald and Spring were in Belfast many times in the 1980's Did Liam Cosgrave and Garret Fitzgrald not spend time ther in the 1970's at Sunningdale.

As the citation was not provided, the statment was removed.

__________________ Sunningdale is in Britain, but it is inconceiveable that Fitzgerald never visited Belfast. Anybody read his autobiography to check? __________________

"FIRST" to have a mistress??
I'm reverting the removal of {fact} from the 'first mistress' entry. Yes the citation discusses the relationship, as does an earlier paragraph in this entry. But No the citation is quite silent on the matter of CJH being the first taoiseach to have a mistress. JXM 21:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The whole issue should be removed as its trivial to the point of pointless. Djegan 21:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Trivia is part of life and must be included. Other taoisig may have had non parliamentary alliances, but they are not documented or even alluded to by biographers. Accordingly Haughey can claim a first in this area also. Removal of this "trivia" will be seen as censorship.

Tayana 22:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You might read wikipedia is not (in particular "is not an indiscriminate collection of information"). If you think it is censorship then thats your pov and somewhat laughable {their will not be too many critics of censorship loosing sleep over it}. Djegan 22:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Most of these facts are non-notable to the point of being trivia. It's notable that Haughey had an affair; it's not particularly interesting or important that he was the first Taoiseach to do so. (Apart from the "first FF leader to enter a coalition", which did mark a major policy shift in FF.) The whole section is covered in a better, more balanced way elsewhere in the article anyway. WP:AVTRIV suggests avoiding trivia sections in articles -- this article currently has two separate trivia sections.


 * Accusations of "censorship" are standard aggressive behaviour from User:Tayana -- see my talk page for more examples. Demiurge 08:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Since there seems to be no independent confirmation of the 'first with a mistress' issue, I've deleted that item. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. JXM 00:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

As the article proper covers the fact of his extra-marital affair (which is very relevant for a legislator, especially given the times he was active in), then there's no point in repeating it in the trivia section. Bastun 13:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup / References
Can we take off the cleanup and Unreferenced tags now? The article has gone through a major re-work of late - Alison✍ 21:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me, the unreferenced tag can be readded to individual sections if they need it. Demiurge 21:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok - done! I added a refs tag to just one, heavy section. There may be others. - Alison✍ 21:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Obituary on RTE website
Can anyone find the obituary on the RTE website

The only copy I can find is the Goggle Cache of it. Garda40 23:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

FitzGerald quote in Legacy paragraph
The FitzGerald quote in the Legacy section, the "Flawed Pedigree" remark is totally out of place. He made that remark on Haughey's ascent to power in 1979. Comments on his legacy should only come from after he left power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.53.217 (talk) 05:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Octanis (talk) 02:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Reading in the article of Haughey's covert activities while in office, as revealed by later tribunals, suggest that Fitzgerald's remark was entirely accurate, whether viewed in the context of before or after Haughey's term.

Ahern's purported Graveside Commentary missing link
The link in the article regarding Ahern's graveside remarks, as of 2008-01-02 are dead. I checked Ahern's website for his "speeches" http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?ACTIVEGROUP=16&locID=200&docID=-1 around the date of Haughey's funeral and there is no reference to any graveside oration. Is there an, Orwellian style 1984, rewrite here? 194.46.187.63 (talk) 01:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No it was corect the link was out of date, it has been replaced as wel as the information restored. Cant speak as for why their is no trascript of the speach on the Taoiseach's website, but in the press release from the Taoiseach in regards to the details of State Funeral it list that "...the Taoiseach, Mr Bertie Ahern T.D., will deliver the graveside oration ..."   --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 02:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The link to the "graveside oration" yields: "The system cannot find the path specified." Please provide a valid link to the graveside oration. Unless you can do this, the removal of the uncited reference is correct as it is POV. 194.46.187.63 (talk) 02:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well the new links do work, i cant speak as for why your computer, or not, will not access them, the citation link that is now in the article is http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0616/haughey.html the link above, which is not the one i wanted to use but is working, should be http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=404&docID=2709, which also works and states that he was to make oration, as it was a press release prior to. Your conspiracy theory is getting old quick. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 19:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Is it not notable that of all the speeches of Ahern, major and minor are reported, but reference to Haughey is but a press release and we must rely on the press to report his comments. I don't know about conspiracy theory, but it is axiomatic that future historians will most likely read Ahern's official listed speeches more often than press releases.

Previous poster could not access links because they were dead. It is uncivil to accuse another editor of being disingenuous in editing as you imply when you state; "why your computer, or not, will not access them" I have moved Ahern's oration as reported, to the Legacy section, which is a more natural home for it alongside Fitzgerald's commentary. 194.46.242.86 (talk) 23:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Usage of "President" in infobox
Why is there a mention of "President" ? What relevance is it? It seems disingenuous and irrelevant. Also as the President outranks a Taoiseach, it is offensive to cite the President after Haughey. Haughey served under more than one President. The entire reference should be blanked 194.46.166.39 (talk) 00:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Carlingford Lough
Does anybody know anything about the time Charlie Haughey sailed his yacht into Carlingford Lough and the altercation between himself and the British when he raised the tricolour? It's proving difficult to find anything in a Google search, but I remember the incident, if not its details. It got huge publicity at the time. I surmise it was sometime before an election, and perhaps during the Hunger Strikes? 86.42.119.12 (talk) 03:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Terms as Taoiseach
The article states that Charles Haughey served 3 terms as Taoiseach. Does the term in office from 1987 - 1992 count as 2 separate terms though? Since the Dáil was dissolved and a new government reconstituted, does this not count as 2? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WooTangKillerBee (talk • contribs) 11:49, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

First attempt to become a TD
"He started his political career as a local councillor, first failing in a by-election to Dáil Éireann. Haughey's first attempt at election to the Dáil came in June 1951, when he unsuccessfully contested the general election.[14]"

Which is it? Either he made his first try at a by-election or at a general election; it can't be both. Harfarhs (talk) 17:19, 13 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Since there's been no response, and since neither ElectionsIreland nor his obituaries seem to mention any initial Dáil by-election campaign, I'll revise the passage. That gives the advantage of being able to say something about his time as a councillor. Harfarhs (talk) 19:49, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * see Dublin_North–East_(Dáil_Éireann_constituency), Haughey first contested the 1951 general election unsuccessfully, then the 1954 general election again unsuccessfully, then the 1956 by-election again unsuccessfully; he was finally elected to the Dail at the 1957 general election. Snappy (talk) 19:58, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly :) Harfarhs (talk) 20:01, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Links in lede
I think that to obtain consistency with other articles, the lede ought to have links to the ministerial job titles. (I admit that is slightly difficult for Health and Social Welfare/Protection, which are of course now separate posts.) Harfarhs (talk) 21:54, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Minister for Agriculture - but when?
"In 1962 Lemass appointed Haughey as Minister for Agriculture.[21]" The headline says the dispute occurred in 1962, the text in 1966. Moreover the WP page on this Irish political office states that Haughey took up the post in October 1964; which tallies with the other sources I can find. Therefore I am re-writing this section. Harfarhs (talk) 22:11, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Terrorism
Why is the reference to Haughey smuggling weapons to the IRA in Ulster not couched in terms of terrorism? Surely providing weapons to a terrorist organization is being a terrorist? These days one can be assassinated by drone for far less.101.98.175.68 (talk) 21:49, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

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Monica McWilliams
I edited the relatives section to add in Monica McWilliams (former NI Assembly MLA) as a first cousin, which you can find on the link below.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/appointment-of-human-rights-chief-is-crass-25980712.html

However, this edit was reverted. Just wondering if she should be included in the relatives section or not? Camcool11 (talk) 16:21, 6 September 2022 (UTC)