Talk:Charles Hawtrey (actor, born 1914)

Untitled
This page should be moved to something like Charles Hawtrey (20th century actor), and the page Charles Hawtrey be a disambig, but I'm not sure about those titles. Any ideas? sjorford 13:02, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * How about Charles Hawtrey (Carry On actor? Timrollpickering 07:37, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Mrs Mills?
The pianist Gladys Mills (1918-1978) was NOT the mother of Charles Hawtrey (born 1914)! I've deleted this bizarre entry.--Stevouk 11:02, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Changed autobiography title
I've change the title of the autobiography section to biography - it would only be autobiography if authored by Hawtrey.

Apepper 13:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Morrissey
It states Sandie Shaw was his 2nd choice behind Hawtrey. How true is that statment, there are photos of Morrissey holding rosary beads to Shaw implying his devotion to her. I've added the to the article Blu sonic (talk) 07:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This is clearly nonsense and I have removed it. MFlet1 (talk) 17:24, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Why do you say that - I've read several references to that. It might not be as strange as you think. Clearly Morrisey was a fan - as why else pen the obituary? Contaldo80 (talk) 17:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I stand corrected - have just found this (http://www.newstatesman.com/200110010044). However I have been reading The Smiths: Songs That Saved Your Life and I'm pretty certain there's no mention of it in there, in fact it says that Morrissey and Marr had been badgering Shaw to record with them for ages before it actually happened.  I wonder where Bradshaw got his information from?  MFlet1 (talk) 09:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

It's possible that Morrisey was winding everyone up by making the claim for example. Although there is a thread - from the NME obituary, the cover art for the 'best of' album, and Morrisey's own sexuality. Contaldo80 (talk) 17:29, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

This section is confused
"Pay for the films was bad and without either Sid James or Kenneth Williams starring in the 1972 Christmas special, Hawtrey believed it was his due to get top billing. However, the producers went with Hattie Jacques, whom they believed was better known on TV. Rogers tried to contact Hawtrey a day before filming began at the place where Hawtrey regularly dined, to ask him to reconsider; but Hawtrey declined. He never worked for the Carry-On again[4]." Is it supposed to be reference to films or TV? DavidFarmbrough (talk) 14:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I was confused when I read it too. If you're confused and I'm confused then other peopel will be to.Bolinda (talk) 04:37, 20 September 2008 (UTC)B

The films. Jacques got higher billing on the tie-in TV special as she was better known on TV. However, Hawtrey never worked in the films or in TV carry-ons again. It's fairly straightforward. Contaldo80 (talk) 16:40, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Websites etc
I think it's misleading to say there are a lot of websites, fanzines and books dedicated to Hawtrey. I'm only aware of the Private Widdle book exclusively looking at home. Sure there are plenty of carry-on related material but that's not really the same thing. Contaldo80 (talk) 14:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Charles Hawtrey birth
Charles Hawtrey's details state he was born 30 November 1914 Hounslow, Middlesex, England, and his death as 27 October 1988 (aged 73) Deal, Kent, England.

I can find no record of his birth (as George Frederick Joffe Hartree) in 1914.

In his death listing for 1988 it says he was born in 1915 but I can't find a birth for him in 1915 (as George Frederick Joffe Hartree) either.

Can somebody prove his birth year & date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.19.83.50 (talk) 17:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * According to a transcription of the UK General Record Office (GRO) birth indices, the birth of "George F.J. Hartree" is recorded on Vol. 3a, page 134 of the birth register of Brentford (Middlesex) district during the quarter ended March 1915. His mother's name is recorded as Crow.
 * You can view a scanned image of the GRO page via http://www2.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?scan=1&r=132857493&d=bmd_1320089156. But the original GRO page is itself a typed-up transcription of the original register; the transcriptions are usually, but not always, accurate.
 * Registration of a birth was the responsibility of a parent, and it frequently happened some time after the birth, so it's difficult to be precise about the actual birth date without more detail and research (e.g. a copy of the birth certificate).
 * With all that in mind, we can only be sure that his birth was registered at some time during the quarter between January 1 and March 31 1915. It's wrong to conclude that the birth was in 1915, but we can say that it was sometime between late 1914 and Wednesday March 31 1915.  Of course, this includes 30 November 1914 so, if that's the only complete birth date that is ever mentioned, it's probably the correct one.  Perhaps it's also correct that he was born in what is now Hounslow, but the place was not an official parish/district until much later; that would be why his birth was recorded under Brentford. Brentford registration district was abolished on October 1, 1947 and the area absorbed into others, including the new Hounslow district. Twistlethrop (talk) 20:11, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Move
He wasn't just a film actor, he also acted on radio, TV and in the theatre, so I have moved the article to Charles Hawtrey (actor). 93.96.236.8 (talk) 13:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The trouble is, there's also Charles Hawtrey (stage actor), so "Charles Hawtrey (actor)" is still an ambiguous title. I think we need a...

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was move. There's no consensus that one or the other is the primary topic, but they need to be distinguished effectively.Cúchullain t/ c 18:31, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

– These two articles could do with better disambiguation - the more recent Charles Hawtrey (which was at Charles Hawtrey (film actor) until recently) appeared on film, stage, television and radio, so just disambiguating by medium is not enough. Neither seems to be the primary topic, so Charles Hawtrey should continue to be a disambiguation page. I'd suggest using birth years, as per WP:NCPDAB. Relisted. Favonian (talk) 16:12, 14 July 2012 (UTC). Interplanet Janet (talk) 14:45, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Charles Hawtrey (actor) → Charles Hawtrey (actor born 1914)
 * Charles Hawtrey (stage actor) → Charles Hawtrey (actor born 1858)


 * Oppose. The Charles Hawtrey who appeared in the Carry On films is surely the primary topic. Zarcadia (talk) 18:28, 7 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Weakly agree the proposed move, but strongly agree with the nominator that there should continue to be no primary topic. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 18:49, 7 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose Firstly, while the existing qualifiers may not be ideal, it is generally accepted that dates are the last resort for disambiguation. Secondly, I lean to the view that the later actor is the primary meaning.  How about "Charles Hawtrey" and "Sir Charles Hawtrey"? PatGallacher (talk) 00:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Using "Sir" in the title seems undesirable per WP:HONORIFIC. Either the proposal or using the "(film actor)" vs. "(stage actor)" distinction seems better. —BarrelProof (talk) 09:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There are a few cases where we use it as a disambiguator e.g. Sir Andrew Murray. PatGallacher (talk) 20:32, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. The Carry On actor is now better-known, but the earlier actor was eminent enough to be knighted. In any case, even if we accept that the former is the primary topic, it still needs disambiguation, since both were actors. Disambiguation using "(actor)" and "(stage actor)" is very poor and I have no idea why it was changed in the first place. I heartily dislike using "Sir" as a disambiguator. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:40, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

British Spelling
I have changed the anecdote about Charles' mother's handbag from "purse" to "handbag". It makes no sense to a British reader to read about a handbag on fire and then to switch to using "purse" which is a different kind of apparel in British English.

Two of Us - The Beatles
John Lennon introduces the song Two of Us from the 1970 Let It Be album : "I dig a pygmy by Charles Hawtrey and the Deaf-Aids....Phase One in which Doris gets her oats " Some think Doris is a reference to McCartney's new wife, Linda. If anyone knows why Charles was mentioned please add. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.239.219.86 (talk) 16:20, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Please do not. It is completely irrelevant to this article and is merely a passing comment about Charles Hawtrey of negligible significance which does John Lennon no credit. It has already been removed. Philip Cross (talk) 19:04, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Irrelevant in your own opinion, but an interesting piece of trivia which others will enjoy nonetheless.


 * If you say so, but Wikipedia is not intended to be a ragbag of trivia. Philip Cross (talk) 13:57, 12 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Although you may regard this is trivia, others will disagree. I think it's a significant point that deserves to be included. Hawtrey is referenced on one of the best-selling albums of the 20th century by arguably the world's most famous music group (certainly of that period). Why downplay? Contaldo80 (talk) 09:21, 14 April 2015 (UTC)


 * It is a detail from one of the books on the Beatles which go almost as far as listing every time Paul McCartney coughed during a recording session. Such a detail is not of proven notability. Trivia on Wikipedia, which is often concealed by the heading 'Legacy as here, is generally accepted if it can be properly worked into the text, see WP:TRIVIA; this is just an added lump. Anyone interested in the Beatles already has an infinite number of articles to read on the subject, the vast majority of which are entirely legitimately. Let's try to stick to references in other articles which mention the Beatles to things which which really matter. Not everyone interested in Charles Hawtrey will be particularly bothered about the Beatles.Philip Cross (talk) 11:09, 14 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Having just watched "Passport to Pimlico" I came to this Wikipedia article expecting this very kind of reference to Let It Be, and was surprised to find none...I'm with Contaldo80.95.151.68.166 (talk) 22:21, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Philip Cross was so stubborn on this point that I'm afraid I gave up. Contaldo80 (talk) 11:31, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

It is preposterous to question the notability of a mention by John Lennon on a released Beatles recording (not a "detail from a book", as misstated above). (In fact, it is referenced on the Wikipedia page for the song "Two of Us"). The source is the song itself, easily accessible all over the web and all over the world. Many non-British people- including me, until recent years, have heard of Hawtrey primarily or only through the Beatles reference. It is astonishing to find it intentionally excluded from his page here.

I'd be grateful if someone who knows how to add the correct footnote would do so and settle this absurd contest. Thanks in advance. Joe Suggs (talk) 14:29, 23 October 2018 (UTC)


 * No it is not "preposterous" to exclude it. Wikipedia is not a reputable source for itself and a published third-party and reliable source is needed to establish notability. This is necessary for a piece of Beatles studio banter which happened to be released, as much as anything else. A Wikipedia user interested in the Beatles would start from the "Two of Us" (song) article where John Lennon's comment about Charles Hawtrey is included. In terms of Wikipedia policies, its omission is not unusual: Wikipedia is NOTLYRICS. Philip Cross (talk) 17:34, 23 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I fully support Philip Cross. In the absence of an explanation of the comment from Lennon, it is just another of Lennon's famously meaningless throwaway lines for comic effect, which might just as well have used any other person's name or even a made-up name. And "Charles Hawtrey and the Deaf-Aids" sounds more than a little derogatory, so I see no justification for including it in Hawtrey's article. Blurryman (talk) 18:16, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

(1) Someone's impression that the reference might be derogatory has no bearing on its relevance or notability. (2) Wikipedia is awash with citations of a subject in song lyrics and other media which address the subject's role and profile in popular culture. (3) The (clearly derogatory) reference to Harold Wilson in "Taxman" is properly cited on Wilson's page. (4) Lennon's brief mention of Mao Zedong in "Revolution" is cited on Mao's page. (5) Beatles mentions of real contemporary figures on record are uncommon enough to make it notable. (6) All this, for three years, as I now see, to censor a single sentence of obvious interest and significance to so many people. Joe Suggs (talk) 19:15, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

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Charles Hawtrey's Homosexuality
The article seems to imply he was gay but never directly addresses the issue. We should fix that. Was his homosexuality an open secret or was it only officially recognized later in his life? When the Personal Life section of the article says "He guarded his relationships very carefully in an era (lasting until 1967 in England) when male homosexual sex was illegal and punishable by a prison sentence." this implies he was gay without directly addressing the issue as if the article assumes his homosexuality is an open secret to any modern reader of the article which I doubt reader would agree. If it's clear that he was gay or that most people who knew him understood him to be gay then we should be able to state that outright while pointing out that he kept his sex life mostly a closely guarded secret in his lifetime. If he is now widely viewed being gay then we should state that while pointing out he was not open about it during his lifetime, especially when it came to sexual encounters. Notcharliechaplin (talk) 07:56, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I support this view. Tobyhoward (talk) 08:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)