Talk:Charles Manson/Archive 1

Slipknot Song
The intro track to slipknots major debut album was taken from an interview with Manson where he is saying "The whole thing i think is sick"

Mushroomhead Song
I never feel right editing the main page, but maybe someone would think about adding Mushroomhead's (best) song "Bwomp" to the "Musical influence" section, because it does feature the line "twist the 4-5 cap and understand that if it were up to me I'd free Charles Manson"?

Also: The rock group "Klaatu", released the album "Sir Army Suit" -  song  "Mister Manson".

LGBT issue
Manson having raped another boy in reform school does not necessarily make him gay or bisexual, and the apparent lack of any other evidence to suggest that he was would seem to disqualify him from the "LGBT criminals" category. Treybien 15:44 27 October 2006 (UTC).

Well it sure as hell doesn't make him straight. What the hell other sort of qualification are you looking for? It doesn't get any more extreme than that. 192.249.47.11 18:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

In a interview with Gerardo found Charles Manson was a practicing Muslim  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.30.151 (talk) 21:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Rape isn't about sex, it's about power.

Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?
The article contains an explanation of his (middle) name change from Milles to Willis interpreted as "Charles Will Is Man's Son." Could this perhaps simply be a connection to the mother of his firstborn (Rosalie Willis)? What was his original intention? I notice the explanation is not sited so perhaps this is an area in need of attention.Gabenowicki 01:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Manson's official name was always Charles Milles Manson. Still is. Never changed. Check the Corcoran prison tally if you want. It's in the public record, anyways. --Tirolion 12:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It did appear on at least one of his drivers licenses as Charles Willis Manson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.227.97 (talk • contribs)

Walnut Hills?
I was intrigued when it said that he went to Walnut Hills high school as my mother went there and my cousin is going there. They knew nothing of his attending there and my cousin was even convinced that he did not attend. I will edit this once I get some more details on the matter.

Guns 'N Roses
Does anybody know the Guns 'N Roses song that was supposedly written by Manson? I'm a big fan of GnR and i would really like to know which song is this.

The song is called "Look at Your Game, Girl" from "The Spaghetti Incident?" and it was on Manson's Lies.--Grain king 01:45, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What's the source for Mason's authorship of Used to Love Her?? I've never seen this attributed to anyone other than Guns n' Roses' members before. See www.allmusic.com, for example. Is someone making assumptions here?

atwa.info

 * (copy, written after complaint at village pump)

I checked the link because I have become somewhat suspicious of what some people consider shocking. I agree with removing the link (note that two days ago, someone already removed the very same link from the external links section of the same article). The picture seems to be on the external site merely to offend people, and I don't see a need to support that by linking to the page. Also, the text on that site is very confused but indicates that the original Manson support page is gone. I went ahead and removed the link. Rl 17:23, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was linked to because it used to be a very useful page detailing injustices done to Manson. Some of their complaints were quite reasonable, and despite the obvious bias, it wasa very useful page. I took a clue from them and added a link to an archive of the old site, something which already existed on the current atwa.info page. -- Harpalus

Beautiful People
In the "Media Influence" section it says that The Beautiful People is a song originally recorded by The Beatles, which is inocorrect. There is a song called Baby You're a Rich Man which has the lyrics "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" in it.

Problems with Opening Sentence

 * Charles Milles Manson (born 12 November 1934) was the leader of a group of young followers of both sexes, known collectively as "The Family", in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

"Followers of both sexes" is ambiguous - it could be saying that Manson was the leader of a group of young hermaphrodites. I doubt this is the intended meaning (but anything's possible with Manson). I think it means the members of the group included both males and females. But what's the reason for stating this? Any group of people would include both sexes unless specified otherwise. So I'd remove "of both sexes" as unnecessarily specific, particularly so early in the article. But that leaves us with "Manson was the leader of a group of young followers ...". Well, obviously, any leader is a leader of followers. So remove "of young followers". Now we have "Manson was the leader of a group known collectively as The Family". Still a problem. "Collectively" is tautological in relation to group, since a group is by its very nature collective. Remove "collectively". Does anybody have a problem with:


 * Charles Milles Manson (born 12 November 1934) was the leader of a group known as "The Family", in the late 1960s and early 1970s.?

It doesn't tell you anything about what the group was all about, but neither did the previous version. I think it works better as an introductory sentence to a long article about a guy who's very hard to label, and where all the details are spelled out. And it's shorter and more to the point. JackofOz 01:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I think a very simple opening sentence is appropriate. If you type in Charles Manson in the hope to learn about him, you better get ready to read for a few hours, and watch a few hours of interviews. You can't explain this shit in an opening paragraph.

Birth date
The birthdate is given as November 14, but should be November 12. See http://www.charliemanson.com/timeline-1800-1959.htm Epicidiot 06:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I am seeing it given as both November 12 and November 11 on the page

personal testimony
I took the potentially large liberty of removing this section for a few reasons: a., we don't even know the publisher and it is supposedly a rare text anyway, b. the wording of it was very not NPOV, and c. beyond POV wording, the wording actually made me suspect a potential advertisement, although this is probably debunked by the fact that whoever posted it did not know the publisher, if in fact notation of not knowing the publisher and pov language came from the same person. Here's the original text for those concerned:

No Longer Ashamed' (publisher unknown): If you can locate this very hard to find autobiography it is the personal story of Charles Manson's nephew Michael A. McFarland and their boyhood relationship. Michaels's journey to escape the stigma is nothing less than inspirational.

If the rationale doesn't work for everyone, do say so.

Plagarism
Big chuncks of this article seem to be taken from the Ontario Consultants for Religious Tolerance (www.religioustolerance.org) section on the Manson Family. I'm talking word-for-word copying. Are Wikipedia and the ORTC aware of this, and has it been approved? If not somebody ought to check into it.

Roman Polanski
In discussing the Tate murder, this article claims that Roman Polanski was in London filming Rosemary's Baby. This is clearly impossible, given that Rosemary's Baby had already been released more than a year earlier, in 1968. Perhaps someone can clarify this?

Feedback
This discussion section reveals one key thing about Manson and that he was a chimera, and had an inborn talent of mirroring whomever he was talking too. He became whatever someone wanted him to be. So when the runaway girls entered his sphere he became a father figure for them, one with authority, experience, and wisdom, and an edge of violence to which they could comfortably submit. Now multiply this on acid and add his lack of respect of boundries(whats yours is mine) and his improvisational role of the archetypes of musician, jester, and sex educator and you had a very strong net to tether in a make-shift "family" or gang which he was to rule. Clearly, over and over, members were getting arrested for stealing credit cars, various petty robberys, auto theft, vandalism, during their halcyon days. Then suddenly a dark mood took over Manson partially in-synch with the late 60's haveing run its course(1967 The Summer of Love, was the end of the hippie movement in San Francisco as the next year heroin and hard core crime led by hard core criminals invaded the scene and took over motivating a strong Citywide counter-response). No-one seems to know why Manson changed so dramatically into a paranoid mode and then everything he touched seemed to go sour. His hope of romancing a Hollywood recording deal fell through, drug deals went back leading to the Hinman murder, constant rousting by the LAPD on auto and credit card theft charges. From there it seemed to go group delusioal and progressively more violent whether Tate-LaBianca or their own group members(Zero) or even bizarre far flung associations of thier members(Pugh in London) to one of their Lawyer's in the trials, and assorted people after the trial turning up stabbed 50 times or buried in the basement crawl space. Now the most recent interviews show metaphoric speech gone paranoid and nonsensical which may be him or too many years in the segregated maximum security units with no human contact. But the reason there are so many interpretations of his so called "motives" is there were really none. He lived for the day, and everyday in the freewheeling 60's after a life in prison was a good one, till they weren't anymore. They all say it(he is a mirror of your reflection-Good) and that is what he natively does, he simply feeds off what you want. He actually is a pleaser at the very core, but its mixed in with a tremendous amount of anger and animosity and boundry problems. Part of him really would just like to be the old man at the campfire singing to the kids. Part of him just wants everything you got. He feeds off of love and off on anger. He is not an integrated personality, and neither were his followers, all from highly disturbed family backgrounds. The only power Manson has is what you give him. Even Fromme said, maybe she, they had asked too much of him and he couldn't handle it. These kids were not so brainwashed as simply thier social inhibitions were removed. From there they could act on their true impulses from what they had absorbed in life and that was to murder, not just the priveledged, but among themeselves. From that its a small step to go into the classic criminal mindset of guilting and paranoia and seeing snitches around every corner. Add to that a peculiar holier than thou blaming of the greater society and school-marm lectures on cleaning the air, trees, water,animals and environment and corporate governance and you have a mess-a cult that murders and an enviromental movement. It may just be a self serving smokescreen as they all have learned jailhouse games so well, or it may be sincere in some. Its hard to say, but in applying their methodology they have so turned off society they are just seen as bizarre. The groups chimerical nature reappears once again with their on again-off again association with the Aryan brotherhood after the murders. Much of the confusion is their adaptability to changing conditions, a survival mode, which is evident in the parole hearings of most of the girls, but not Manson and Fromme and to a lesser degree Good. Murders did occur and nothing can take away from that. If people today feel some mercy is in order regarding the punishment its their call. To think any of them have reformed their souls is silly as they are so hard core, but is that for us to even demand? They are what they are, part of the human condition. But to revision Manson as some mystic or the group as anything more than it was is just fanciful. There are plenty of reasons to critiqe where our society has taken us, and those at the top that insist we continue on this way. There is plenty to improve in humans in how they treat their earth. But the Manson approach was a total shipwreak as the people at the helm were really bad pilots and they totally sunk that boat.

Hi, I just surfed onto your article. Well done to those who have helped create it -- I think it is impressively NPOV considering the material. I'm not sure if this point has been made, but I think the validity of the "news" articles on http://www.charliemanson.com/news-archive/index.htm as linked in the article is dubious. The recent "news stories" on Roman Polanski give enough evidence as to strongly suggest they are written by the owner of the website, with a direct and consistent attempt at defamation. The writing style they are in comes across as an amature attempt at recreating a journalistic style, giving evidence to their lack of authenticity. Please read the articles in question (Try "Polanski's Tears at 'slur on Sharons memory'", the most objective sounding one in the list) to gauge for yourself. I hope you come to the conclusion that they are most likely fabrications, and consequently should not be linked in the article.

NOTE: They are simply news article headlines and not written by any single person. They are obviously NOT written by the website owner. They aren't even articles. Just headlines as they appeared in the news. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.227.97 (talk • contribs)

Meat Loaf encounter
i was searching meat loaf on youtube and came accross this video in which meat loaf recalls picking up charlie manson who was hitch hiking. i wouldn't know where this would fit in, maybe trivia. i'm just putting the information here for anyone who wants to use it

WTF?!
From the article "He was an evil, evil man."

WTF is that? This is a damn encyclopedia. Clearly judgmental phrases like that should not be presented.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with the statement personally, but this is simply not encyclopedia material.

-- bobo Novermber 13, 2006 - 4:39 am

I have to agree with many of the comments above. This article needs some major editing. It reads as a mishmash of selections largely taken from a couple of "true crime" books. In particular, the gap between Manson's early/young adult life and the Tate/La Bianca murders is striking. How did the "family" come together? How did Manson recruit his followers?

There are also too many seemingly random "factoids" scattered throughout, as well as a few that are presented as evidence for various assertions, but fall far short of the mark. For example-- Manson's IQ of 109 is mentioned in reference to his alleged abilities to manipulate and use people. The implication of this paragraph is that he's one smart cookie, albeit uneducated. But an IQ of 109 (if this uncited fact is even accurate) is hardly exceptional. I don't recall the exact classifications off the top of my head, but 109 is in the "average range" that 50% of the population falls into. I believe the "superior range" only begins at 130.

-- David

Manson Girls
I'd like to see either an entire page or a section dedicated to the manson girls, esp. Squeaky, Patricia, Leslie, and the other gal who was in on the LaBianca murders. They have very interesting stories! GingerGin 01:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you mean a combined article for Lynette Fromme, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Leslie Van Houten? Pomte 04:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I second that question; When IS he up for parole? I'd like to do a few student interviews of this guy, I mean, he appears to be F*&%ing brilliant, just like Hitler, this guy was a genius. The only catch was that he was a psycopath, but other than that, I think that it would be very interesting to talk to him a bit about his more minor felonies, how he pulled them off, etc. So if anyone knows when he's up for parole, please spill.

So..?
Just to clear things up, Manson never actually killed anyone? Shouldn't this be clearly stated at the begining if so?

Yup Manson never actually killed anyone... Basically he was told about it after the first murders and covered it up.

You can also check out http://www.Write-A-Murderer.com to see letters he wrote admitting this.

Another picture?
I think we need a pic of him at the trials... Kritish5951 03:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

he is featured in a nwa song

Removed
I've removed the following as they are unsourced and mostly non-notable. Jimbo Wales didn't mean for Wikipedia to be a giant collection of Family Guy trivia.

Pop culture references and parodies
with a crime record like Charles Manson."
 * Marilyn Manson derived his stage name from the names of Marilyn Monroe and Charles Manson.
 * Death Rap artist Necro utilizes the image and voice of Charles Manson quite frequently in his work. He is also known to reference the Tate-La Bianca murders on many of his songs. Most notably, the album The Pre-Fix For Death features an intro by Manson himself, whose presence is maintained throughout the whole of the album.
 * The Tate-La Bianca Murders have been dramatized in movies several times, most notably in 1976's Helter Skelter, starring Steve Railsback as Manson, and its 2004 TV movie remake, which starred Jeremy Davies as Manson, Bruno Kirby as Bugliosi, and Clea DuVall as Kasabian.
 * Evangelist and comedian Mike Warnke claimed in his book The Satan Seller to have met Manson at a Satanic rally in 1966, before Warnke's conversion to Christianity. This was impossible (Manson was incarcerated at the time), and Warnke was later exposed as committing numerous such hoaxes in his career.
 * Manson appeared as a cartoon character in a South Park episode, "Merry Christmas, Charlie Manson!", in which Manson returns to jail willingly after seeing several Christmas specials. He is also the only character in the episode to show concern over the death of Kenny.
 * Manson is often referred to in rap music as well, most notably by Ice Cube in the title track of the N.W.A. album Straight Outta Compton ("Here's a murder rap to keep you dancin'/With a crime record like Charles Manson.") Also he is mentioned in another Ice Cube song with Dr. Dre in Natural Born Killaz ("So fuck Charlie Manson, I'll snatch him out of his truck, Hit 'em with a brick then I'm dancin'") and the long-rumored Ice Cube/Dr. Dre collaborative effort was supposed to be titled Helter Skelter.
 * In the early nineties, The Ben Stiller Show filmed a mock episode of Lassie entitled "Manson," in which Charles Manson is portrayed as the family dog, and goes on to save Timmy from a snake bite down at the creek.
 * Also on The Ben Stiller Show, Manson was portrayed by comedian Bob Odenkirk.
 * American Death Metal Band Deicide, wrote the song "Lunatic of God's Creation" about the Charles Manson Murders.
 * Although the names were changed a movie about the Manson Murders was made called Live Freaky, Die Freaky. Billie Joe Armstrong of Green Day played Charles Manson. Other punk rock icons were also parts in the movie as well.
 * In the episode "Tech Support" of the online cartoon Neurotically Yours, the character Foamy the Squirrel refers to his computer being "...as unstable as Charles Manson."
 * Family Guy briefly show him in a cutaway watching T.V. in jail
 * At the beginning of the U2 cover of Helter Skelter on the Rattle and Hum album, Bono says "This is a song Charles Manson stole from The Beatles. We're stealing it back."
 * In the movie Natural Born Killers, Manson is referred to as 'the king' by the serial killer character Mickey Knox.
 * The 3tards have a picture of Charles Manson in their logo with the words "Call me crazy but I love the 3tards" written under it.
 * For his 1974 album On the Beach, Neil Young wrote Revolution Blues through the eyes of a character inspired by Manson, whom Young had met in his Topanga Canyon days.
 * At the end of Thank You for Smoking, character Nick Naylor states, "Michael Jordan plays ball. Charles Manson kills people. I talk."
 * In the cartoon show, Futurama, when Bender gets bit by a were-car and they find out who made the original were-car, it was said that they took a part of Charles Manson's hippie van.
 * In the movie Liar, Liar, Jim Carey insists that the Judge's decision regarding custody of the children is a mistake and yells at him by saying "...Well maybe you can explain that to [the children] when they're adopted by the Manson Family!"
 * In mexican [lucha libre] promotion [Asistencia Asesoria y Administraciòn] the luchador Jim Kata got over huge with the new gimmick Charly Manson, partly related to the killer.
 * In the Comedy show In Living Color, Jim Carrey plays the role of Manson in a parody skit.
 * In Suicide Circle, Genesis calls himself the "Charles Manson of the information age!"
 * In the NWA song Straight Outta Compton a line goes "Here's a murder rap to keep yo dancin

TV

 * Family Guy Manson appears in "Brian does Hollywood" Peter runs into a log cabin where Charles Manson and other friends are sitting in a circle. Peter then says "Guys, I've been invited to a party at Sharon Tate's house. Now, you can come if you promise not to embarrass me."


 * Family Guy Manson appears in jail watching television reruns and quips, "If I haven't seen it, it's new to me."


 * South Park Manson appears in "Merry Christmas, Charlie Manson!" multiple times throughout the episode.


 * Son of the Beach A convict in prison goes by the name of Adolf Manson. They combined Adolf Hitler and Charles Manson's first and last names respectively.

--Wasted Sapience 19:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Covers and tributes

 * The metal band Dio referenced 'Helter Skelter' in their song "One Foot in the Grave" from their early 90s "Strange Highways" album.
 * Necro's "Do the Charles Manson".
 * Cleveland, Ohio-based alternative metal band Mushroomhead references Manson in the song "Bwomp" off of their sophomore album "Superbuick". They say throughout the song, "If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson".
 * The aptly named Italian record label Helter Skelter Records released the compilation Comin' Down Fast! : a gathering of garbage, lies and reflections on Charles Manson on CD and 10" vinyl in 1993, with contributions by David Peel & The Lower East Side, Motorpsycho, Starfuckers, Eugene Chadbourne, Jesus Fuck & Da Murderers, Controlled Bleeding, Skullflower and others.
 * Sonic Boom and Frank Kozik issued a 7" single on Sympathy for the Record Industry in 1994, featuring two different versions of Manson's song "Mechanical Man", one side with vocals by Kozic, the other side with vocals by Sonic, who also plays all instruments on both sides.
 * The compilation cassette Watching Satan : the legacy of Charles Manson : a 90 minute slice of modern folklore, released by Hypertonia World Enterprises, included covers and tributes by Seedjoy, Charles Rice Goff III, Abrahadabra, Sinister Attraction, Hope Organ, Anton Balsam, Squidbelly Phlegmfoot & The Plug Uglies, Neither/Neither World, ZBZ, The A.A. Experience, The Bill Jones Show, Plastic Eye Miracle, Geoff X. Alexander, GG Allin, Las Animas, The Arnold Incorporated, Dr. Maya, Anus Presley, David Barnes, Lord Litter and The Apostles.
 * The band Alkaline Trio, released a song on their album Crimson called "Sadie" about Susan Atkins, a murderer in the Charles Manson family who took part in the Sharon Tate murders in 1969.
 * In 1976, Throbbing Gristle made a film entitled "After Cease To Exist", inspired by a Manson song title
 * In 1982, Boston hardcore punk band Negative FX featured a picture of Charles Manson, with their logo digitally "carved" into his head, on their self-titled LP. It also featured pictures of Manson family members on the back.
 * Since 2003, a Orange county NY based Noise-punk band known as "Sparrows with Machine-guns" has done a cover of "Home is Where You're Happy" at live gigs only. They plan to record the cover for a 2007 full length album.
 * Sonic Youth, in cooperation with director Richard Kern, produced a video clip for their song "Death Valley '69," in which some of the band members acted out gory scenes reminiscent of the Tate/LaBianca murders.
 * In 2002, Dilute did a cover version of "Home is Where You're Happy" on If The Twenty-First Century Didn't Exist It Would Be Necessary To Invent It CD (5 Rue Christine )
 * Neo-psychedelica band The Brian Jonestown Massacre references the life of Manson in their songs "Arkansas Revisited" and "The Ballad of Jim Jones".
 * UK underground electronic music pioneers, Cabaret Voltaire, used Manson's voice from various radio interviews, which they used in their tracks "Hell's Home", "Kickback" and "Golden Halos" featured on their album "The Covenant, The Sword And The Arm Of The Lord" released in 1985.
 * System of a Down wrote the song "ATWA" on their Toxicity album about the media's viewpoints on Manson. (ATWA is an acronym used by Manson, meaning both "Air-Trees-Water-Animals" and "all the way alive.").
 * Ozzy Osbourne recorded "Bloodbath in Paradise" on his No Rest for the Wicked album about the California murders.
 * The music video for "Gave Up" by Nine Inch Nails was shot entirely at 10050 Cielo Drive in the summer of 1993 when their lead singer, Trent Reznor, had leased the property in Benedict Canyon from Rudi Altobelli. In the video, the song was performed in the living room of the main house, with the exterior of the house and grounds shown at the beginning and the end. Among the performers was a young Marilyn Manson, who gave Reznor the idea, and who also shot a video at Cielo. Reznor claimed to have no knowledge of the slaughter that took place at the house before moving in, and coincidentally he dubbed the studio "Le Pig", and recorded the album The Downward Spiral there, on which two of the tracks were named "Piggy" and "March of the Pigs".
 * In 1969, months prior to the Tate-LaBianca murders, The Beach Boys covered "Cease to Exist", retitling it "Never Learn Not to Love" and releasing it on the album 20/20 (with sole songwriting credit given to Dennis Wilson).
 * John Moran and Iggy Pop collaborated on The Manson Family: An Opera, which was produced by Philip Glass.
 * Crispin Glover performs a cover of "Always is Always Forever" on his album "The Big Problem"
 * Devendra Banhart covers "Home Is Where You're Happy" as a part of a medley with Lauryn Hill's Doo Wop (That Thing). He performed it at Bonnaroo and the Pitchfork Music Festival in 2006.
 * Guns N' Roses covered the Manson song "Look At Your Game Girl" on their album "The Spaghetti Incident?". The song does not appear on the track listings of the CD; it is a "secret song" that plays at the end of the last track. At the end of the song Axl thanks Manson, stating "thanks Chaz".
 * Skinny Puppy have used samples of Manson speaking and singing The Beatles' "Helter Skelter" (as well as samples of the actual song) in their song, "Worlock," from 1989's Rabies. Samples of Manson speaking can also be heard on "Convulsion," from 1990's Too Dark Park Members of Skinny Puppy (as Download) also recorded a soundtrack for the Jim Van Bebber film Charlie's Family (a.k.a. The Manson Family).
 * Hip Hop duo 'Heltah Skeltah', a break off from The Boot Camp Clik - share the same name as the infamous 'Manson Family' murder signature.
 * The British band Kasabian takes its name from Linda Kasabian, getaway driver and member of the Manson Family.
 * Argentine rock band Babasónicos have a song titled "Sharon Tate", after the actress murdered by Charles Manson and his followers, in their 1999 album Miami.
 * Neil Young's 1974 album On the Beach included a song Young had written from Manson's point of view titled "Revolution Blues". Young had met Manson while living in Topanga Canyon.
 * American skinhead band People Haters recorded a song "Charlie Manson´s eyes" for their 1995 released debut cd "A collection of hate".
 * The Acacia Strain sample Manson saying "Believe me, if I started murdering people, there'd be none of you left" in their song Passing the Pencil Test off of the album 3750
 * Negativland's 1989 album Helter Stupid sampled interviews with Manson during the title cut.
 * Gothic metal band Paradise Lost inlcuded a sample of Manson's voice from the British television commentary in "Forever Failure", a track from the album Draconian Times.
 * Pantera, An American heavy metal band, makes a reference to Manson by including his quote, "No sense makes sense" in the lyrics to the song "Uplift".
 * Superjoint Ritual, A heavy metal band led by Pantera's Phil Anselmo, mentions Charles Manson in their song "Dress Like A Target" stating "we're not hippies, we're slippys. Like the Manson Family". Their song "Creepy Crawl" is entirely about Manson, and the title of the song refers to Charlie's petname for breaking-and-entering.
 * Dragonland's song "Calling my Name" off of their 2004 album Starfall contains several clips of Manson, including the line "Believe me, if I started murdering people, there'd be none of you left".

--Wasted Sapience 19:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * These are very important facts about Manson, and they should not be removed without consensus. WooyiTalk, Editor review 20:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been looking for "important facts" in all of this for some time, and I don't see any. It's trivia and pop culture references like this which are keeping Wikipedia from being taken seriously. We should all hope that one day the official policy will be to bar non-notable pop culture nonsense from articles. As to how a mention in a song is any more notable than a mention in a newscast, well, that's beyond me. Also, I don't see any sources anywhere in this huge list.

The fact of the matter is that this article was very long and by removing this cruft it is now much shorter and easier to work with. We can now start referencing the notable material about Charles Manson. --Wasted Sapience 20:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I moved all of the important facts to Charles Manson in popular culture. --Wasted Sapience 22:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * In your own words - I've removed the following as they are unsourced and mostly non-notable. Jimbo Wales didn't mean for Wikipedia to be a giant collection of Family Guy trivia. Then you go and contribute to that very problem by creating an article called Charles Manson in popular culture which contains all that "unsourced and mostly non-notable" trivia. Great, just what Wikipedia needs - another "in popular culture" article. Better here than there, eh? 172.189.45.54 20:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm a graduate student in art and we quite frequently study the popular culture. The academic term "visual culture" is typically applied to such study.  I find that your accusations that including references in the visual culture to important events in wikipedia would somehow make it less serious to be uninformed, and a growing number of very serious academic students and educators would agree with me.  And in any case if you are not interested in studying the visual culture you have the option of not clicking on the link to "Manson in popular culture".Rglong 19:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Picture needed
The mugshot was deleted on commons because it is unfree. But there is no free image available, so we need to get a fair-use mug shot uploaded. WooyiTalk, Editor review 23:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Mugshots are created by government agencies (police departments) and thus are, not copyrighted!

Scientology
See link http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=20181 it seems Scientology had far more of an impact than the article states.

low copper/zinc ratios might have been the cause for him beeing a serial killer
Biochemical Treatment of Behavior Disorders In the late 1970’s, Dr. Walsh and co-workers developed a biochemical classification system for behavior disorders based on trace-metal concentrations. Based on chemical analysis data from hundreds of violent criminals and behavior-disordered children, behavior disorders were divided into four distinct types. […] Type B individuals are characterized by low copper/zinc ratios, along with elevated sodium, potassium, lead and cadmium. Most exhibit behavior disorders by age 2, and are often described as oppositional, defiant, pathological liars, remorseless, and cruel. The incidence of the Type B imbalance appears to be less than 0.5% in the general population, but between 20-75% in maximum-security prisons in Illinois, California, and Ohio. In studies of ex-convicts and violent children, Dr. Pfeiffer found these individuals to exhibit elevated blood histamine, low blood spermine, elevated kryptopyrroles in urine, and zinc deficiency. Notable examples of persons with a severe Type B imbalance include James Huberty (McDonalds massacre), serial killer Henry Lee Lucas, and Charles Manson.

From: http://www.hriptc.org/BioTreatment.html

To be freed in 2007?
According to the SmokingGun.com and about.com, Charles is set to be eligible for parole in 2007. But the Wiki article states he will be freed in 2012. Can someone please clairfiy this with an authoritative legal source like county, state, or Federal records.


 * http://crime.about.com/od/murder/ig/The-Manson-Family/mansonfull.htm
 * http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/cmansonmug1.html


 * Heh, no, he will not be freed in 2012. He will have another parole hearing, which he will likely not bother attending (based on the pattern he's established in recent years), and which will no doubt be denied yet again. I couldn't find the part in the article where it said he will be freed; perhaps it was corrected since your above comment. Charles Manson is a huge can of worms; he will never be released because nobody wants to be the guy who freed the most notorious "serial killer" in American history. I suspect the authorities just wish he would hurry up and die of old age. Every time he skips a parole hearing he spares them another media onslaught (getting a camera into the parole hearing of a notorious criminal is a ratings bonanza, and the Manson Family members lay the biggest golden eggs of them all), so I'm sure they are quite relieved when he decides to just stay in his cell on those days.
 * The most notorious serial killer in american histry eh? He didn't even kill anybody.
 * That's why he's notorious.
 * Note that I placed "serial killer" in quotes.

He did NOT appear at his parole hearing and was denied parole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.227.97 (talk • contribs)

To Move With His Uncle And Auntie In Bel-Air?
Under Early Life, First Imprisonment a section reads:

"After temporarily honoring a parole condition that he live with his aunt and uncle in Bel-Air, Manson moved in with his mother in that same state."

Is this true or vandalism? The comedy The Fresh Prince Of Bel-Air featured the bolded line in the title song and has become a popular internet meme.

Questions
"Susan Atkins preserved the effort from total loss by defecating in the stairwell." seems like a somewhat approving, unencyclopedic tone. Any reason for it? What is meant by "latter-day Manson follower"? Someone who joined him shortly before his arrest, or someone who considers himself to be a follower after his imprisonment? How has Manson been spending his time in prison, is there any attempt at counseling or rehabilitation?
 * I think question two is answered (with respect to George Stimson in particular) in the wired.com article linked at what is presently (Aug. 16, 2007) footnote 168.

Occupation
If "occupation" be taken to mean the role in which he supported himself, Manson was not a musician. "Career criminal" seems awkward. For a while, the phrase "no gainful employment" appeared in the Occupation slot; I entered that. It still seems to me the apt entry.JohnBonaccorsi 23:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Parole
Any idea when in 2007 he will be up for Parole? I haven't been able to find anything and thought for sure this page would have that information. I thought it would be in the news too. BUMM

It will be a minor news item. He will appear, the board will say no and that will be that. George415

I hope he will be denied parole and will share the same cell with Mark Chapman till kingdom come. And what's with this overly kind tone of the article anyway? Esp the letters from fans part makes me throw up... so much adulation for a sick demented asshole… 81.96.126.218 22:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Note: He did NOT appear at his 2007 hearing and was denied parole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.227.97 (talk • contribs)

Why was Manson in jail for most of his adult life?
The article just says that he was, and that he was then released, and then involved in the murders.Seriously, he was an evil, evil man, and anyone disagreeing will delete this. Dont be the one to delete it, because then you may reveal yourself to be the type of person who believes Charles Manson was a good person. Thank-you. Why was he in prison in the first place? It sort of looks like he was in prison for the murders, before they were comitted. Needs explanation by someone who knows something about this (I'd never heard of Manson. Not related to Marilyn Manson, is he?). CGS 22:52 26 Jul 2003 (UTC).


 * He's related to Marilyn Manson in name only. Marilyn Manson constructed his name based on Manson's (and Marilyn Monroe's). &mdash;Frecklefoot 19:32, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC) Marilyn Manson is a band.


 * Manson was in jail before the murders for things along the lines of theft and arson. You can find good information on his life at http://www.crimelibrary.com

OgniemIMieczem - 8:40 AM January 25, 2005. Don't give him the stick.First, Charlie Manson was accused of being able to control other people’s minds, psychically “to kill”. Although the prosecutor never established the fact that he or any one else was even capable of doing such an incredulous act.

Second, The main witnesses were his co-defendants (Susan Atkins and Squeaky Fromm,) who were obviously delusional, since they admitted, “hearing voices" that believe were Charlie Manson. And the court accepted this as evidence even though,  According to the 1965 Federal Court Ruling People vs./ Arranda, states “You can not enter into evidence any statement made by one co-defendant against another…” Therefore, their (Susan Atkins and Squeaky Fromm,) statements would be considered inadmissible as evidence against Charlie Manson. Ronnie Howard’s testimony would be considered a confession from Susan Atkins and Squeaky Fromm, but hearsay against Charlie Manson.

Third, Charlie Manson never killed anyone himself. And he wasn't even at the crime scene. Those women weren’t forced or co-ursed. Therefore he should have been charged with “accessory,” at the most. His sentence would then be 5 years in California State Prison.

Fourth, The gun that the prosecutor submitted as evidence was a 45 caliber. The gun used at the crime site was a 38 caliber??

Fifth, The Judge should have ruled the case an acquittal. For this type of serious felony should be a unanimous vote from the jury not majority.

Sixth Sharon Tate & Roman Polanski’s daughter lived. Her name is Leslie Laffy & she lives in Grass Valley California. She was born January 28th 1970. She was born 4 months after her mother was allegedly murdered. Therefore if Leslie is alive so is Sharon Tate. How many lies has our Government told us?

It’s been more than 37 years since Charlie has been convicted. This year he’ll celebrate his 74? birthday. I think it’s time to set this innocent man free. Please consider initiating a further investigation.

For the sake of Liberty and Justice for all.


 * "Dont be the one to delete it, because then you may reveal yourself to be the type of person who believes Charles Manson was a good person." Oh. My. Goodness. Sure thing, okay, whatever you say, Manson was an "evil man". Come to think of it; how is that defined? I'm referring to the concept "evil", of course. The civilized world has waited for that exposé for .. what? .. some three and half thousand years by now. Miles upon miles upon miles of bookshelves in our public libraries are good enough testimony to the elusiveness of that concept, I think. But you're partly right, of course; stating that Manson (or anyone else, for that matter) is an "evil man" has absolutely no place in an encyclopedia whatsoever. In fact, no judgement calls in whatever shape or form have any place at all in this Wiki. Thank you for your understanding. (By the by, I don't believe Manson was an "evil man", just as little as I'd believe Hitler was an "evil man". I won't delete your assertion, either. This is a "Talk" page, anyways.) --Tirolion 12:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Roman Polanski Pregnant?
Under 'The Killings' the article states that a man (film director Roman Polanski) was eight months pregnant at the time of Sharon Tate's murder. Perhaps someone could edit the entry to correect this impossibility. --- Desertphile
 * done - Rossrs 22:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Roman Polanski wasn't pregnant. His wife, Sharon Tate was. She was one of five people murdered by Charles Manson at a home she and her husband had rented. I'm currently doing a report on him.


 * Thanks for the clarification. Maybe I should say this again... I fixed this..... in September. So who are you doing the report on?  Polanski?  Manson?  Rossrs 07:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Where's the Neutrality?
Repeating a simplified, shortened version of Bugliosi's book _Helter Skelter_ is hardly neutral in POV; Bugliosi, remember was the prosecutor, and his case was based almost completely on the State's evidence testimony of drug-addled Susan Atkins. ("State's evidence", for non-Americans, is the term used here for someone testifying against an alleged accomplice to get a lighter sentence, like if you and I were charged with robbing a store, and I made a deal to help the prosecutor by saying you held the gun -- so you should be punished worse than me.)

I'm not saying Charlie Manson was a saint, or innocent, or a misunderstood kid who never got enough hugs, only that this article as written is not neutral.

David 
 * Feel free to be bold and update it to make the text more neutral! Tuf-Kat 04:23, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)

MANSON REALITY:

For those interested in Manson, I suggest you read "Manson in His Own Words," by Nuel Emmons, a guy Manson did time with. I hardly attest that it is 100% reliable, but it offers an alternative view of things from "Helter Skelter." Helter Skelter was pretty much an invention of Bugliosi's, because he needed a motive to aid in prosecuting Manson---the jury had to believe Manson had a reason for ordering the killings. Don't get me wrong, Manson was almost certainly guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, and accessory before and after the fact, and number of other things, but that doesn't mean he necessarily got a fair trial. He'll die in prison, one way or another---there's been far too much publicity for him to ever be released. Much of what you hear about Manson & the Family is crap, but then again, much of what comes out of Manson's mouth is crap, too: jailhouse gibberish. He was older than the kids at the ranch, he took advantage of them, and since most of them had the brains of hamsters and were stoned on top of it, he went on a little ego trip to see how far he could get them to go. It's a prison mentality, a power thing. The 60s were conducive to radical ways of thinking. While Manson wasn't a hippie, the kids he surrounded himself with and manipulated were. He said once in an interview with Geraldo, "I'm Jesus Christ, whether you want to accept it or not, I don't care." He has also denied ever saying this. Listen to an interview with Manson sometime, and it's obvious he wants to maintain his image as mystical guru, but it's also just as clear he's a pathetic little criminal and little more. How's that for neutral? -me

I like the guy. He must've been pretty damn smart, which no-one ever seems to credit him for. How's THAT for neutral? - Not me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.81.136.71 (talk) 15:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * "[A]ware of the flat intellect of most mass killers, the extremists admire and are impressed with Manson's unquestioned intelligence, the offbeat and sometimes searing nature of his insights, his enigmatic answers and allusions, and a mental deftness that allows him to speak in riddles, always with an underlying message." -- Bugliosi and Gentry, Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders  25th Anniversary Edition, W.W. Norton & Company, 1994.  Page 496.  ISBN 039308700X.JohnBonaccorsi 23:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

System of a down's ATWA
"System of a Down wrote the song ATWA on their Toxicity album about the media's viewpoints on Manson."

Where has the band stated what the song is about exactly? I have heard them say it is about Manson, but System of a Down do not generally like to give their meaning behind a song ("As band, we don't like limiting interpretations to our songs by defining them.") I will try to research this a little more myself and see what I can come up with. --nadavspi 03:50, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * All you need to do is read the lyrics and you'd have a general understanding about what it means. The song is a viewpoint from Manson himself; and in the end the song is about how if we focus on one part of a person (ie: Manson's madness) then we miss important parts, like his feelings on the enviornament (ATWA). I haven't found anything from the band but all you need to do is try to come up with your own impression, which is what bands want you to do. =) - [User:FireflyAngel|FireflyAngel] Jan 26, 2004 (UTC)

Don't know about Manson.
The link at the bottom goes to the page saying that Charles Manson claimed to be Jesus Christ, but on Manson's own page, it doesn't mention it. I'm confused as to how this Jesus Christ thing comes into it.

Well, I can't find the quote, but at some point in his life, he stated very strongly that he was anything but a hippie. And I think Parole is out of the question. No percent at all. --70.18.172.198 23:45, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Very often in video interviews Manson is asked about Jesus Christ and he responds by saying "I am Jesus Christ, every man is Jesus Christ" .... which is actually common Christian belief, that we are all God and God is all of us etc etc. I think the problem is that back when this story was huge and glamourized, reporters like Heraldo and such liked cutting out the last part and just using "I am Jesus Christ", which obviously glamourized his apparent insanity beyond what actually existed.


 * These beliefs are actually not "common" Christian belief. I think they are beliefs espoused by some Christian sects, but Christians more commonly believe that Christ is a separate being that inspires or spiritually inhabits Christians. Mainstream Christianity, in fact, holds it somewhat heretical when humans claim the perfection of deity. Applejuicefool 16:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Joni Mitchell's "Same Situation"
Has Mitchell herself said that the line refers to Manson?

Here's the entire stanza:

Still I send up my prayer/Wondering where it had to go/With Heaven full of astronauts/And the Lord on Death Row

This is a reflection on the confusion of modern life. "The Lord on Death Row" is probably a reference to the phrase "God Is dead". This, of course, was a quote from Nietzsche, but Mitchell at the time was probably thinking more of the common usage of the phrase ever since it appeared on the cover of Time Magazine in 1966. drone5 00:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as i can find, there is no reference to the song being about Manson. I'm going remove it until someone has actual evidence. --Manik52 14:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Highly complicated wording
Maybe it is just me, since I am not a native speaker of English, but the wording of these few sentences seems extremely complex to me. In short, I don't understand what it's saying. I'd appreciate if any of you could clarify it for me, although I would be even more happy to see it changed in the article.


 * This motive was substantially discredited during the penalty phase of the trial, where it became apparent that the "free Beausoleil" motive was contradicted by other testimony of the killers. Additionally, despite declaring they would die for Manson, the other accused claim to have waited until the main trial was over and the death penalty was being discussed, and then only on redirect, to introduce this as a motive. It was dismissed by the prosecution as an attempt to clear Manson by means of the other defendants taking the blame)

Thank you in advance --Mtu 21:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Learn English.

Oh, we will. Perchance you'd like to teach us, o compassionate one? O' most elevated sage, please spare some crumbs, some trinkets, mere baubles of knowledge from thine cornucopia of wisdom for us who yearn for the english glossa, that our parched tongues may be loosened and our thirst forever slaked. Thine autograph seemeth to be faulty, tho. --Tirolion 12:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Intercourse with male followers?
I reverted an edit claiming rumours that he had intercourse with his male followers. At first glance, it appears to be vandalism and I was almost ready to hit the rollback button, but I did some research into Charles Manson in the past, and I seem to remember this as either fact or rumour, originating from his experiences in prison as a teenager. However, I'm still reverting this edit because it was provided without a citation. This edit, especially because it mentions it as a rumour, definitely needs a citation. --Deathphoenix 22:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

John Gilmore's book about the Manson Family, "The Garbage People", and the 1971 documentary "Manson" both mention Manson having intercourse with his male followers (in the documentary, his followers admit it).

In his interview with Geraldo he admits that despite being in prison "Charlie still gets som lovin'" --Donnald 16:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Geraldo I think we can agree isn't a reliable source for information. He is the king of video edits and misquotes. If you are seriously going to add this in before many other rumours with far more evidence, you better have someone, even a few people, readily admit that they actually had sex with Manson. Not just some prison inmates or people that hate Manson saying that he "still gets lovin" as that is open to possible biases and even more, misinterpretation. Manson does get lovin', in the form of thousands of letters per week from fans, men and women, saying they love him etc etc.

In Helter Skelter his followers say he had sex with men and woman. The first thing he did with his followers was that they all had an orgy. He had everyone do EVERYTHING. He even went "down on a boy." when he was a teenager and in prison he had sex with a boy while holding a knive to his neck. This is all from Helter Skelter. Dont Blame me if its wrong.

Yeah, I heard on a History Channel documentary about Manson, saying that he did have orgies with female and male members of The Familty. Wouldn't this also add him to the LGBT catagory? IronCrow 23:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

'Letters from Manson'
I removed material that has been repeatedly posted to a large number of serial-killer articles in the last couple of days. It's probably *closer* to on-topic here than on most of the articles where it was spammed, and if a non-anonymous user who's looked at it feels it deserves inclusion in the External Links section, feel free to do so. I'm just unwilling to trust the original editor's judgement on that point, and have better things to do than register for the site to find out whether it was relevant to one of the many articles where it was spammed. --Calair 03:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Done account r3egistered and links reposted. It is exactly as the original poster says. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghost tracker d (talk • contribs)

Please do not spoof other members, Ghost tracker d, and please stop adding your spam to articles. EVula 16:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ghost tracker d already knows that the link is spam and not allowed. He's been spamming it to several articles for weeks now and needs to be stopped. If he does not I will look into getting him banned as a chronic spammer and the site added to the blackhole list the prevents any page from being saved if it includes that URL. Bad behavior like this will not be rewarded, so you may as well give up spamming it before you make it worse on yourself. DreamGuy 19:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Motive
Why doesn't someone just write to him and ask what his motives were?
 * Believe it or not, that would be original research so we couldn't use it. We have to wait for someone else to get the information and publish it somewhere reputable, then we can use it.  In your capacity as a private citizen, you could write to him and do the work of getting it published.  Then some other Wikipedian could see it and quote it here.  Funny, huh.  JackofOz 10:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Marilyn Manson
How is he related to Marilyn Manson? They're both creepy. Are they brothers?70.124.132.176 20:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * They're not related. Marilyn Manson and his bandmembers each took the first name of an iconic female and the last name of a serial killer/killer.  So Marilyn Monroe + Charles Manson = Marilyn Manson.  Other bandmembers were/are Ginger Fish (Ginger Rogers/Albert Fish), Madonna Wayne Gacy (Madonna/John Wayne Gacy) etc.  See the full list here. Rossrs 20:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Uncle's prison sentence
"In 1939, his mother and his uncle, Luther Maddox, were convicted of sexual assault. Luther served five years in Moundsville prison, dying there in 1949" makes no sense - 1949 is TEN years later than 1939, not five. DrHydeous 17:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this sentence, "Marilyn Manson derived his last name from Charles Manson." is misplaced. It's not significant enough to be in the first paragraph and I think it should be moved to the pop culture section, where it would fit better. -WeirdWhodi

I tripped over this discrepancy in his uncle's prison time and death as well. Without knowing the facts, I am not going to just go in and "correct" it, but leaving it as it is is just...ugh. Does anyone have the correct years for his uncle's sentencing and death? If not, perhaps the whole mention ought to be removed until the information is found... DF  76.192.51.46 03:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Improper Citations for a Biography of a Living Person
I'm very concerned that there is a section for references and further reading at the bottom of the article but nothing connection individual assertions to those references. Per Wikipedia policy on biographies of living persons, all biographical information about a living person must be referenced or removed. Period. This is quite a large article with an epic history, but that doesn't make it immune to Wikipedia policy. Ideas? Wyatt Riot 09:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Height
I included the fact that he is only 5'5 in there for no other reason than it is an interesting fact when you consider how intimidating he is purported to be.Quadzilla99 13:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

not that it matters but in the book helter skelter it says that he's 5'2


 * The 5'2 height is disputed by Manson family members, particularly Sandra Good. They claim that Bugliosi lied about the height in order to make Manson appear more unusual/freakish. Serpent-A 17:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The book has a booking picture with a the height measurement of 5'2" on a chart next to Manson. --PTR 21:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Children
I would appreciate if some/anyone could provide some reliable sources to Manson's second son, the alleged Charles Luther Manson. I've read just about everything there is to read about the man, but never have I found anything even remotely reliable regarding this alleged second son. As far as the public and official records go, there's absolutely nothing to be found about any person named Charles Luther Manson. Some sources state the year of birth as 1963, which would mean a bizarre and quite unnatural gestation period of some 36 months for the unfortunate mother. Manson was put in jail in 1960, remember?

Anyone? If no-one can come up with the goods, I will remove the entry. Tirolion 16:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't believe that this loser, Charles Manson, can attract so much attention.

Well, you're here reading about him, aren't you? ;) Tirolion 10:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Believe me, nothing I am particularly proud of. Research into this guy seems like a dead end onto itself.  Who cares if he slept with his followers, etc.  There's something deeply disturbing about fetishing someone like a Manson.

There are numerous citations on the internet about the alleged second son -- Charles Luther Manson -- but they are all either factually false, illogical or unverifiable.

The online source at: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansonchrono.html doesn't even notice that Manson had been in jail for three years in 1963. How's that for a "reliable source", eh?

The source at: http://history1900s.about.com/od/1960s/p/charlesmanson.htm even tells us that Manson was married to Leona. No such documents exist.

Some online sources even offer her real name; Candy Stevens. No official documents of any such marriage exist, nor do any documents of any such child exist. The aforementioned documents would be in the public record, readily accessible by anyone. After some quite thorough research I've come to the conclusion that the entire story is made up, a fairytale, a pipe dream. Another word for such a thing is a lie, eerily in line with the title of Manson's first LP. What sayeth thee, fellow wikipedians? Any objections to me removing the entry? Tirolion 10:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The story is not completely without foundation:


 * In mid-June [1959, after a paroled Manson had been arrested for attempting to cash a forged U.S. Treasury check,] an attractive nineteen-year-old girl named Leona called on Manson’s parole officer and told him she was pregnant by Charlie. The parole officer was skeptical and wanted to see a medical report.  He also began checking her background.




 * When Manson appeared in court on September 28, 1959, … Leona also appeared and made a tearful plea in Manson’s behalf. They were deeply in love, she told the judge, and would marry if Charlie were freed.  Though it was proved that Leona had lied about being pregnant, and that she had an arrest record as a prostitute under the name Candy Stevens, the judge, evidently moved by Leona’s plea and Manson’s promise to make good, gave the defendant a ten-year sentence, then suspended it and placed him on probation.


 * … [In December 1959, Manson] took Leona-aka-Candy [and another girl] from … California ... to ... New Mexico, for purposes of prostitution, violating the Mann Act….


 * … Possibly to prevent Leona from testifying against him, he did marry her, though he didn’t inform his probation officer of this.


 * On October 1, 1963, [officials at the United States Penitentiary at McNeil Island, Washington, where Manson, whose probation had been revoked, was serving his sentence on the check-cashing charge,] were informed, “according to court papers received in this institution, that Manson was married to a Leona Manson in 1959 in the State of California, and that the marriage was terminated by divorce on April 10, 1963, in Denver, Colorado, on grounds of mental cruelty and conviction of a felony. One child, Charles Luther Manson, is alleged to have been of this union.”


 * This is the only reference, in any of Manson’s records, to his second marriage and second child.


 * -- Bugliosi and Gentry, Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders  25th Anniversary Edition, W.W. Norton & Company, 1994.  Pages 142-43, 145.  ISBN 039308700X


 * JohnBonaccorsi 18:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

1967-1969
It seems odd that there is no discussion of the time period between his release from prison and the 1969 murders. How did he form the "family"? Uucp 22:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Annoyingly, Manson Family links here, but this article says next to nothing about the Manson family. The articles on the family members say a few things. The article on Squeaky Fromme explains that she "found Manson's philosophies and attitudes appealing". No mention here or there at all about what those might be.

- Keith D. Tyler &para; (AMA) 19:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Kathleen Maddox
link routes to Charles Manson...wtf??


 * TF is that she's Manson's mother. Do you have another Kathleen Maddox to enter? CMacMillan 00:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I get that, but it's an active link on the Charles Manson page. in other words, the page links to itself. if there is no page for Kathleen Maddox, it should not link to her son, particularly when the link connecting to Charles Manson is on the Charles Manson page. it's like using the word you're defining in the definition.


 * D'oh! That's wtf... gotcha. I'll change it. CMacMillan 01:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * In most of the information I have read (including Manson's autobiography), Maddox was 16 when she gave birth; this article lists her age as 18.--Unregistered Me, 11/12/06


 * According to the 1930 Census for Ashland, Boyd Co., KY (p. 94, dwelling 52, family 63 - 2105 Hilton Ave.), enumerated 4 April 1930, A. Kathleen Maddox (12) was the daughter of Charles M. Maddox (47; Steel Railroad Conductor) and Nannie E. (43; Housewife). The family also contained another daughter, Alene (17), and a son, Luther (14). Frumentarius 21:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

McMechen, WV and West Virginia State Penitentiary
It is established that his mother served time in West Virginia State Penitentiary in Moundsville, WV and lived in McMechen, WV outside Moundsville when Charlie was young. Also, the prison has a letter from Charlie Manson where he was attempting to be moved to the prison from CA after he was convicted. Here is the letter:

http://www.charliemanson.com/places/lb-moundsville.htm

and below is the text of the letter, spelling incorrect:

Charles Manson B33920 - CMF Box 2000 Vacaville, CA           95696

Dear Sir. I was razed in McMechen & Wheeling & worked at the race track under big Bill & Charlie Stoneman who put them big stones at the prison & on the road. You may know some of my ken folks God knows they been enough of us in & out of your place.

I'm a beenie(?) brother from way back. Calif prison people had me in the hole for 14 years. They done told a pack of lies & built up so much fear that there is fear of what they made up to start. Frist time I steeped in your (????????) 4 years (???) & Calif has a transfer tryp(?) with other states. Would you accept me at your place. I got 9 lifes & don't want out no more. I'm a good worker & I give you my word I'll start no trouble. I've been in prison hallways over 30 years & never lied to you & never rated. That should count for something some where.

Thank you Charles Manson

1. Will you accept me. If so I may git there on them old CCC roads that we built for you a while ago.

I can't seem to git no mercy from Calif. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.165.59.99 (talk) 18:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Family Guy
In the episode of Family Guy "I Never Met the Dead Man" of the First Season a reference is made to him by Peter. Peter "You know I hear that Manson guy watches TV all day" Manson " If I Haven't seen it it's new to me" This Should Be Added into the Parodies 124.178.115.217 10:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Please integrate some of these parodies into a proper body of text before adding any more junk to that section. See WP:AVTRIVIA. —Centrx→talk &bull; 12:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Why the Accent on his mother's Destitution
Maybe it's just me but I feel as though there is considerable accent placed on the destitution/grotesquery of the mother. I don't know, I'd say more but I'm too tired to think. It's as though the article tries to make his mother look as bad as possible.

61.9.204.168 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The Family
It's been mentioned before, but "Manson_Family" redirects here. The article refers to it continuously, but gives very little information. Surely it deserves a separate article? Who was in it, when it was set up and so on. 212.108.17.165 13:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Gary Hinman
The article says only that his murder was related to money. However, more than a few sources on him also mention a bad drug deal as the primary source of argument. WiccaWeb 16:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Too much detail
This is an encyclopedia, not a historical essay. The level of detail is much too great in some sections, and can be summarized appropriately. FT2 (Talk 20:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * sofixit -- Merope 20:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I take it the commenter meant to say "an encyclopedia article" -- or was he or she summarizing?JohnBonaccorsi 23:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's fine as it is. Who cares if it's long? There's a lot of information to the story and the subject. The Parsnip! 20:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

This is well referenced, and is very close to good article status
Just saying. The lead section needs a few more paragraphs to summarise the article, but it's a decent piece of work.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 14:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Color of article
Is it just me or is the color all in red? Should I revert it back to black or leave it as it is.Janus8463 17:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there any mention of color in the historylog?


 * Yes -- the font was turned red by a vandal at 17:13, 18 August 2007.71.242.176.86 03:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Name change
On Dan Abrams'  msnbc  show, Vincent Bugliosi said something about Chuck referring to himself as  Charles Wills Manson,  Charles Wils Manson,  Charles Wilson Manson, or something of that sort.

Thank You,

&#91;&#91; hopiakuta Please do  sign  your  signature  on your  message. %7e%7e  Thank You. -]] 02:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * From Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders -- 25th Anniversary Edition; Vincent Bugliosi with Curt Gentry; W.W. Norton & Co., New York, 1994. ISBN 0-393-08700-X. Page 235:


 * I was curious about something. Up until his arrest in Mendocino County on July 28, 1967 [more than two years before the Tate-LaBianca murders], Charlie had always used his real name, Charles Milles Manson.  On that occasion, however, and thereafter, he called himself Charles Willis Manson.  Had Manson ever said anything about his name?  I asked.  Crockett and Poston both told me that they had heard Manson say, very slowly, that his name was "Charles' [sic] Will is Man's Son," meaning that his will was that of the Son of Man.


 * Although Susan Atkins had emphasized Charlie's surname in talking to Virginia Graham, I hadn't really thought, until now, how powerful that name was. Man Son.  It was tailor-made for the Infinite Being role he was now seeking to portray.


 * JohnBonaccorsi 23:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe no one can recall,... If so, okay; but, I was curious about the color timecode. Not so important, just wanted to know.

As f/ the book quote, someone, Mr. J. B., went to much trouble to copy Mr. V. B.: Thank You.

So, w/ Charles Milles Manson, versus Charles Willis Manson, Charles Will Manson, possibly some premeditated MWwm dyslexia, or....

&#91;&#91; hopiakuta Please do  sign  your  signature  on your  message. %7e%7e  Thank You. -]] 05:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Virginia Graham (4 July 1912, Chicago - 14 December 1998, New York City) born Virginia Komiss was a daytime TV talk show host from the mid-1950s to the mid-1970s.

&#91;&#91; hopiakuta Please do  sign  your  signature  on your  message. %7e%7e  Thank You. -]] 05:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Re passage from Bugliosi: You're welcome.  Re Virginia Graham:  Not the same Virginia Graham.  (Bugliosi was referring to a cellmate of Susan Atkins.)  Re red font:  I've added the timecode to the note in preceding section.  Re Atkins joke:  I've deleted it; don't clutter the page.JohnBonaccorsi 23:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Rape statement
Charles Manson never raped a boy so why does it say "Less than a month before a scheduled February 1952 parole hearing, Manson raped a boy while holding a razor blade against his throat." in the first imprisonment article ????

I keep deleting it but it keeps gettinf put back up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Finchm (talk • contribs) 12:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Documentation of this incident - which DID occur - is in Bugliosi's book. BassPlyr23 15:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The statement about Manson's attack on the boy is on page 139 of the 1994 edition of Bugliosi and Gentry's Helter Skelter. (Should it work properly, the link in the preceding sentence will take you to that very page.) This is footnoted at the end of the Wikipedia paragraph. As I recall, I tried to limit the number of footnotes by letting that one footnote cover the entire paragraph. Following Bugliosi and Gentry, I originally wrote that Manson "sodomized" the boy; another editor substituted the word "rape" (whose only shortcoming is that it's redundant).JohnBonaccorsi 21:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I have reinserted the statement, with its original verb and with a footnote of its own.JohnBonaccorsi 21:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I think Bugliosi is just being biased and that he made it up i have the book helter skelter i'll check that page out

Dear Finchm -- Because of your concern about the accuracy of the rape statement in Bugliosi, I was about to extend the article's footnote with a passage from Manson in His Own Words and leave a note for you here about the added passage; I then saw that you had reverted this section's heading to "Manson didn't rape a boy," which, as I explained in my edit summary, I changed to "Rape statement" to reflect the discussion here. "Rape statement," which I have reinserted, is neutral and is a more appropriate heading for the section. Anyway -- I will extend the footnote as I planned to and will leave the note for you.JohnBonaccorsi 17:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Finchm -- I have added the passage from Manson in His Own Words to the article's rape-statement footnote. (Should the link in the preceding sentence work properly, it will take you to the passage, at Google Books.)JohnBonaccorsi 17:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Additional note: In saying that the only problem with the verb "rape" was redundancy, I meant that the use of the razor blade made the sodomy rape; but now I'm not so sure that's true. Bugliosi and Gentry's sentence, whose wording, as I have said, I originally followed (on May 2), is this: "[L]ess than a month before the [parole] hearing, [Manson] took a razor blade and held it against another boy's throat while he sodomized him." They don't say the sodomy was forcible; they simply say Manson was holding a razor blade against the boy's throat while it was taking place. It's difficult to determine, in other words, what was in the records they consulted about the incident; arguably, they chose their words carefully. When, as I have mentioned, another Wikipedia editor changed "sodomized" to "raped," I, reluctant to act as if I own the article, let it go. Although the substituted verb made me slightly uncomfortable, I told myself the problem was -- or, at least, mainly was -- redundancy; I now think the original verb, which I have already restored, should be preserved.JohnBonaccorsi 06:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Correction: Bugliosi and Gentry's first sentence, quoted in the preceding note, is on page 139 of the 1994 edition. On page 146, when they refer again to the incident, the authors do use the term "homosexual rape." Anyway -- I think the subject is now treated fairly in the article. I still recommend preservation of the verb "sodomize," for avoidance of redundancy.JohnBonaccorsi 07:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

ok i understand why it sais it there now I jus wish it could indicate tht it may not be true and could just be a rumour or buglosi lying arwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by Finchm (talk • contribs) 14:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * At the article, click down to the new version of the footnote, presently numbered 19. You'll see I've added to it a passage from Manson in His Own Words, which I've introduced as "written as if it were Manson's autobiography and ... presented as based on, among other things, Manson's own statements to its author."  The said passage purports to give Manson's (self-exculpatory) account of the events.  Unless Manson in His Own Words is factitious, that eliminates the possibility the episode was merely rumored or a Bugliosi fabrication.JohnBonaccorsi 21:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Major Changes on 09/18/07
Every now and then someone comes along and reverts the article to a form from many moons ago without discussion. I don't own the article and I don't presume to say what is right and what is not. In a case like this, I think that a discussion of the changes (which erases a large number of sourced information and inserts unsourced info) should take place. So I reverted said changes. Lets discuss it. --Chuck Sirloin 21:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's apparently still happening - can the editor involved please bring these changes to the table so they can be placed in by consensus and not by force? Rebochan 12:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently, you're going to make me sit here at the computer with my copy of Helter Skelter and footnote every single sentence as I revert the article to the more well-written and factual version that I had composed earlier. The article as it stands now is not encyclopedic in style and is factually untrustworthy (I make this statement based on my knowledge of the book and other reading I've done on the case). Fine, I don't mind.

BassPlyr23 22:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, please do. Citing is required for any possibly contentious statement in bios of living persons.--Chuck Sirloin 17:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Opening sentence
I have undone a revision of the article’s first sentence. The sentence that had been revised was as follows:


 * Charles Milles Manson was the leader of what came to be known as the Manson Family, a commune that is often termed a cult and that began to form around him in the U.S. city of San Francisco in 1967.

The editor who revised it described it as far too wordy and confusing and replaced it with the following:


 * Charles Milles Manson is a career criminal who founded and led the eponymous “family,” a cult in San Francisco in 1967.

The revision is unclear. The reader coming to the subject for the first time can have no idea what is meant by “the eponymous ‘family.’” He or she can have no idea why the word family is in quotation marks. “Founded” is a misleading verb, which suggests the group was more formally organized than it was. “Cult” is debatable (and has been the subject of back-and-forth editing). The final phrase – “a cult in San Francisco in 1967” – has no syntactical relation to the rest of the sentence; insofar as it can be said to have meaning, it seems to indicate the group existed solely in San Francisco during the one year 1967.JohnBonaccorsi 02:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

To address the concerns of the editor whose revision I undid, I have entered a new opening sentence:


 * Charles Milles Manson is a career criminal who led the so-called Manson Family, a commune or cult that began to form around him in the U.S. city of San Francisco in 1967.

JohnBonaccorsi 03:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I am the one who rewrote the first sentence. An intelligent reader will know what I wrote. This article has been revised way too many times. Its subject isn't that important, IMHO, I give up. Goodbye!George415 01:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I see you have reneged on your goodbye and have once again revised the article's opening sentence to indicate Manson "led the eponymous 'family.'" That wording is faulty.  "Family" is not itself eponymous.  The reader familiar with the subject -- i.e., familiar with the term "Manson Family" -- will know what you were trying to say; the reader unfamiliar with the subject will be mystified.  Your statement that an intelligent reader will know what you wrote is an attempt to muscle aside this criticism and happens to be faultily worded itself.  Your petulance, too, is objectionable.JohnBonaccorsi 10:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Return of the pop-culture references
Unsourced miscellany is beginning to accumulate in the article’s section headed “Charles Manson in Popular Culture.” Even the one source -- for the statement that “Marilyn Manson” is a stage name assembled from “Marilyn Monroe” and “Charles Manson” – does not seem reliable. A glance at various sections above – i.e., on the present discussion page – makes clear that this is not a new problem. At one point, an editor attempted to solve it by creating a separate article, “Charles Manson in Popular Culture”; but that seems to have been deleted from Wikipedia. Although I am not qualified to say whether the deletion was demanded by Wikipedia guidelines, I suspected it would result in the material’s re-accumulating in the Charles Manson article itself.

There will be no reduction in the pressure to present the material, which is not uninteresting; so a proper place should be found for it. It should not be included in Charles Manson; it makes the article unwieldy, tends to be unsourced, and is not always intelligible. The present information about the South Park episode, for instance, includes a punchline that seems to indicate, inexplicably, that Manson has authored books. A statement about an Alkaline Trio song includes a mistyped reference to “Charlies broken .22” This was apparently supposed to be “Charlie’s broken .22”; but because the editor who entered it has not explained that the Tate crime-scene included fragments of a .22 caliber pistol that shattered when Tex Watson used it to bludgeon Wojciech Frykowski, the reader who has come to the Wikipedia article for information simply finds mush.JohnBonaccorsi 19:40, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


 * My opinion about pop culture sections is: If it is not sourced and can't be added into the article itself as a paragraph, it doesn't belong. Delete delete delete. --Chuck Sirloin 00:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
As a look at the revision history will confirm, this article is vandalized regularly, sometimes insidiously. At 20:00 6 October 2007, for instance, a revision was made of the following sentence: “The pair committed two armed robberies on their way to the home of the other boy’s uncle.”  As revised, the sentence read:  “The pair committed two armed robberies on their way to the home of the other boy’s uncle, and raped two girls along the way.”  Note that the sentence is footnoted and that the false information about rape could easily have been taken seriously. In fact, three subsequent revisions of the article were made before the false information was spotted and removed. (The removal was executed by me, who, as author of the original sentence, happened to spot the problem.) I am not familiar with Wikipedia’s arrangements for protecting pages that are subject to chronic vandalism, but no revision of this article should post without a vandalism check by a guardian editor through whom it will have been routed. (I am not, incidentally, volunteering.)JohnBonaccorsi 23:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up. A couple of instances a week for an article like this one are par for the course - unfortunately.  It's when the rate hits three or four an hour from multiple sources that we start to get twitchy.  Thanks for your good work!  Rklawton 23:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Please cite sources
There are a number of weasel words and poor, and possibly incorrect, citing in this article. I've hopefully fixed one in /* "The Family" */ where it stated that Manson referred to the commune as the family (uncited). I changed this to "Bugliosi referred to as ..." (from Helter Skelter 1974 and the 25th Anniversary Edition Afterword © 1994 Vincent Bugliosi). There is a weak reference in Manson's court testimony: "... a lot could be cleared up and clarified to where everyone could understand exactly what the family was supposed to have been, ..." but later he implies other people are doing the referring: "Most of the people at the ranch that you call The Family ...", and other weaker sources deny Manson said this.

Furthermore the so-called Jesus quotation looks abridged, or maybe plain wrong, but I could not verify this as it's uncited and unreferenced. The best I found was from his testimony again: "I may have implied on several occasions to several different people that I may have been Jesus Christ, but I haven't decided yet what I am or who I am." -Wikibob | Talk 13:29, 2005 May 22 (UTC)

On the night of August 29th, 1969, I was hitchhiking and walking, the Golden Gate Freeway #5, at approximately 2:00 a.m. I was returning after having painted my 1964 Buick Wildcat in Burbank, I was 15 years old. I had been stranded in Burbank unable to drive the Buick back home that night after the painting. As I was walking there were few vehicles on the freeway that passed me by, until a Volkswagon Bus, either light blue or white, was moving slowly on the freeway pulled over. I ran up to the van, pleased someone had stopped. The driver asked in a slurred voice, "Wher ya going?" I told him I was heading into the valley off of Nordoff and Havenhurst. He said, "Hop in". I got into the van and noticed right away that the driver had a marijuana cigarette that he was smoking. The van was full of marijuana smoke and I rolled down the window in the front passenger seat. The driver offered his name saying, "I'm Chaarlie". I told him my name. He asked, "What's yu doing". I told him I was trying to get home after painting my 1964 Buick and couldn't drive it home and had to walk. He said, "I'm goin' to Topanga and can drop ya off in Van Nuys". Then Charlie began to speak to me of his life. He invited me to come with him to his commune. He said he had lots of girls. He spoke of his anger toward the "machine" which controlled his life. He said, "Kill em' all! I was getting really weirded out by this man with stringy black hair, slurred voice, and small diminutive face. Funny thing, he never went over 30 miles an hour on the Golden Gate Freeway. He kept on insisting I come and spend the night. I told him, I have to get home so I can pick up the Buick later that day, now August 30th. When we came to the Osborne, I had him just pull over on the freeway and he dropped me off. As I was leaving the van I noticed that the back of the van had sheets covering the entire back of the van. I was so happy to get out of the VW bus. I had felt the darkness of this man as a fifteen year old kid. That feeling I can still remember. It would not be until December that I would see this man's face plastered on the front page of the LA times. I never told my parents. There was no denying I had brief encounter with Charles Manson. Kevin RocqueKrocque (talk) 02:20, 27 July 2015 (UTC)