Talk:Charles Martel-class ironclad

Name of class
These ships are referred to as Brennus and Charles Martel. I have not found sources calling them the Brennus class or the Charles Martel class. This is probably because they were never completed.--Toddy1 (talk) 04:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Both ships were completed.
 * They are not known as Brennus class or Charles Martel class because, although close in design, they did not constitute a real "class", but were part of the series of "prototype ironclads" that the French built in the late 19th century. Rama (talk) 17:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

copied from User talk:Rama If you ever come across drawings or other additional data on the Charles Martel class battleships (1883) please tell me.--Toddy1 (talk) 16:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * We have articles and images of both ships. They are not always considered to be a coherent type, they belong to the series of "prototype ironclads" that the French Navy build in the late 19th Century.
 * I have taken the liberty to convert the units into metric, not only because it is better according the the MoS, but because French engineers work in mm and converting back and fro from imperial units entails bizarre and imprecise numbers. Rama (talk) 17:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

You have assumed that the Brennus and Charles Martel completed in the 1890s were the same ships as the Brennus and Charles Martel laid down in 1884 and 1883. They were not. According to Conways, your Brennus and Charles Martel were laid down in 1889 and 1891 respectively.

The reason for quoting the measurements in Englisxh units was that the source quoted them in English units.--Toddy1 (talk) 17:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No, these are indeed the same ships. Their design was already obsolete when they were laid down, so their construction was interrupted several times between 1882 and 1890 as plans were modified. This is also the reason why their construction took so long. 1891 is the launch date of Brennus. Rama (talk) 17:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

What is your source for this?--Toddy1 (talk) 17:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll check that this evening in the Dictionnaire des bâtiments. I strongly urge caution against using British sources to document French ships. They may give insights, but they are very liable to be as riddled with errors as French sources are about British ships. Rama (talk) 14:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Confirmed, the Brennus was definitely started in 1882, launched in 1891, and scraped in 1922. Rama (talk) 17:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Deleted alterations made on 25 August. The original had inline citations for everything. The altered version has different data set against the original inline citations; that is not acceptable. The original article says the ships were cancelled, and that a different ship Brennus was the next class. An image of the next Brennus is not appropriate.--20.133.0.13 (talk) 13:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * French engineers work in metres, not in feet. Similarly, these ships were completed, albeit after a long construction time. Sourced errors are errors nonetheless. Rama (talk) 14:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Janes Fighting Ships of 1898, which is the earliest Jane available, gives the laying-down date of Charles Martel as 1893, and Brennus as 1891. Conceding that the laying-down dates do not accord with those quoted in "Dictionnaire des bâtiments" it would appear that only one ship of each name was in reality in existence in the period in question.--Anthony Bradbury"talk" 20:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Though this thread is long-since dead, I figured I'd add a comment. It's fairly clear that the two pairs of ships are not the same vessels. This is confirmed both by contemporary publications (such as Brassey's) and by modern experts (Ropp, for instance). For further evidence, here's a quote from Luc Feron's article on Marceau:
 * "Don't confuse this one [Charles Martel] with the 12,000-ton battleship of the 1890 program which was actually built, once more on Huin's plans."
 * As Rama said, sourced errors are errors nonetheless, though in this case, the error is on the part of the Dictionnaire des bâtiments. Parsecboy (talk) 14:26, 9 August 2013 (UTC)