Talk:Charles S. Roberts

Challenge to accuracy of entry
I am not fully familiar with the Biography aspect of Wikipedia as of this moment, however H.G. Wells has been attributed as the "Father of Wargaming" for much longer than Mr. Roberts has even been known. I believe Mr. Wells first reference was 1911 or there-abouts. When I figure out how to challenge the accuracy of the information posted here, I will update appropriately. Let this topic serve as notice that I intend to challenge the above referenced assertion. Though, Mr. Roberts should still possibly be a notable person because of his founding of Avalon Hill, that does not make him the "Father of Wargaming", especially in light of Mr. Wells earlier contributions.

See the following links for more information: "Originally released in 1911 by literary giant H.G. Wells, this book is sometimes characterized as a "companion book" to Little Wars (see below for Little Wars reprint). A classic of gaming theory and philosophy, definitely must reading for anyone who enjoys or devotes much of their leisure time to games." http://www.skirmisher.com/

Check the History of Wargaming section of this entry; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargaming

Also examine the following link under the section labeled "Commercial Hobby Wargaming"; http://www.hmgs.org/history.htm

"Hobby gaming and professional gaming were largely inseparable during the early days of wargaming, but by 1913, the year when H.G. Wells (an ardent pacifist) published the rules for his game Little Wars..." found at http://faculty.virginia.edu/setear/students/wargames/page1a.htm

These references should be enough to establish the foundation for challenging this assertion.

Comment: While you should carry through with your challenge, I thought I should note that this article says Charles Roberts is the "Father of board wargaming" not "Father of wargaming". A fine distinction, yes, but a distinction nonetheless. User:Craw-daddy|Talk 14:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Reply: While you are correct about the distinction - it is unsubstantiated. There are NO external references except those given by his "Award Foundation", and personal Biography data (also provided by the Award Foundation) to substantiate the claim of "Father of Board Wargaming". It is also too close - IMHO to the "Father of Wargaming" title, as "Board Wargaming" is not a distinct category within the gaming community using that terminology.

Also, if you follow the information more closely, you'll see that the subtle difference is possibly intentional, in order to claim such distinction, but if you read the article at [], you will see that the distinction is not carried through in the referenced article. This makes the assertion unsubstantiated (IMHO), potentially controversial (given he is listed as a special advisor to the award foundation), and actually an encroachment upon a title not deserving by the claimaint/article. I stand by my assertion that the "Father of Wargaming"/"Father of Board Wargaming" should be removed/edited to more accurately reflect Mr. Roberts contribution in such a way so as not to disparage this title/reference to H.G. Wells as evidenced by multiple, reliable, and external sources ranging over nearly 100 years! Obewanz 15:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The wargaming community doesn't use the term "board wargaming" outside of this context because when a distinction needs to be drawn between Roberts' style of game and Wells', it's usually Wells′ style that gets a qualifier (as "miniatures wargaming"). The fact that "board wargaming" isn't much used elsewhere isn't a sign that it isn't used in this way, but simply a sign that "Father of Wargaming" was already taken. -Stellmach 15:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

11 years later..

A Google Books search "father of board wargaming" finds plenty of reliable secondary sources, he was even presented with a plaque at Origins that said it. I think where people get confused is AH pioneered the use of printed with ink on cardboard for war games. It's no accident Roberts was in the printing press business, and also railroads - miniatures and railroad interest go together as a hobby. What's unknown is Robert's interest in wargaming prior to Tactics, he was likely playing miniature wargaming with model railroad stuff is a good bet; probably his father and/or grandfather were involved in miniature railroading. So many modern hobbies go back to model railroading, this idea of playing at scale simulating reality reached a mature point with model railroads which then went off in different directions including ultimately RPGs and wargaming. -- Green  C  19:48, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

History
Source of detailed history of AH and Roberts. From a 1980 edition of The General. -- Green  C  20:07, 26 January 2020 (UTC)