Talk:Charles Sobhraj

Cell Phone
The article in the Prison section mentions Cell Phones in India in the 80's perhaps that should be a shoe phone, I am a little skeptical. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mokgen (talk • contribs) 09:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

As an American expat, living and working in sri lanka in 1986, I would hasten to add that India was still very much a tech backwater then; I had to wait 18 months to get my first phone installed and that took an enourmous amount of influence and bakseesh.. Now the country rings with over 50 million cell phones, with several million more added each month, but back then even though Sobhraj had enourmous influence and resources in his time in prison, as did many celebrity prisoners, I saw Man Singh weeks after his surrender, driving in a police jeep in gwalior buying Bhang at a market, this was a luxury that did not exist at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.213.36 (talk) 19:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Articles
Is a classic case of an over 1 year untouched (apart from vandalism) biography - which looks as though it has lifts from neville's books which have not been cited - considering the subject and the controversy and the issues arising from travel by westerners in south and south east asia 30 years ago (and all through to now as well) - some more attention to detail and very careful editing and re-writing of this article is warranted - regardless SatuSuro 07:50, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Charles Sobhraj
I am the sister of one of Charles Sobhraj's victims. Her name is Teresa Knowlton, not Jennie Bolliver. Jennie Bollivar is the fictitious name referring to her by the author Thomas Thompson who wrote the book entitled "Serpentine". He (Thomas Thompson) interviewed my grandmother and some of Teresa's friends. He grossly misrepresented our family, especially our mother. Yturner 04:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I can verify the correct name of the victim murdered in a tidal pool in Thailand as being Teresa Knowlton, not Jennie Bolivar. The book entitled "The Life and Crimes of Charles Sobhraj" ISBN 0224017764 written by Richard Neville and Julie Clark, published in 1979, uses the correct names of the victims. Richard Neville interviewed Charles Sobhraj in prison. You can view the references to Teresa Knowlton at this website: http://books.google.com/books?id=BEwiAAAAMAAJ&vid=ISBN0224017764&dq=the+life+and+crimes+of+charles+sobhraj&q=teresa+knowlton&pgis=1 The name Jennie Bolivar was a fictitious name created by Thomas Thompson, author of the book entitled "Serpentine" Thomas Thompson changed the names of the victims in his book.Yturner 02:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Under the heading "Prison time" there is a banner saying-"This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (December 2007)"

regarding I believe the following information that is in queston:

"Sobhraj's systematic bribery of prison guards at Tihar reached outrageous levels. He led a life of luxury inside the jail, with TV, and gourmet food, having befriended both the guards and the prisoners. He would walk in and out of jail whenever he wanted.[citation needed] Revelling in his notoriety, he gave interviews to Western authors and journalists, such as Oz magazine's Richard Neville in the late 1970s, and Alan Dawson in 1984. He freely talked about his murders, while never actually admitting to them, and pretended that his actions were in retaliation against Western imperialism in Asia, an excuse which most criminologists find highly doubtful."

He granted more than just the two interviews cited aboive and I would imagine that those lines are self serving PR, but The Hindustan times ran several articles the month of his escape and the weeks following his capture in Goa that spoke to this information, spoke about the complicity of the guards in his escape and of even more of the privalages in detail that he enjoyed in his cell. The time period predates electronic media and the archives would be viewable, as so much of this material may be available in hard copy, but outside of stray copies residing in the Library of congress,doubtful, the next best true source material would be if journalists kept any english language Indian news papers from that time. I also remember this information in the Nation and Bangkok Post of the same period as Reuters reprints and is most likely more retrivable. I, myself was in Goa at the time of his rearrest and there was an odd sense of anger amongst the hippie/traveler/expat community towards his arrest and he assumed an odd mantle of hero, that I never understood. It was a time that Man Singh, Phoolan Devi and many other Dacoits had emerged as folk heros and the sannyasin's of the Poona Rajneesh Ashram, had created a certain climate of foreign resentment towards local authority,that was akin to the golden age of outlaws in the US. the local newspapers had story after story on him and should be able to verify that the privalages were indeed as cited and more.

if I were an editor here I would redo the paragraph as:

"Sobhraj's systematic bribery of prison guards at Tihar reached outrageous levels. He led a life of luxury inside the jail, with TV, and gourmet food, having befriended both the guards and the prisoners. He would walk in and out of jail whenever he wanted. Revelling in his notoriety, he gave interviews to numorous authors and journalists, He freely talked about his murders, while never actually admitting to them."

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.213.36 (talk) 20:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * My sincere condolences to Teresa's family. The term outrageous can be dropped, just say that his sustained bribery of prison guards allowed him to live a life of luxury; this will strike and reasonable reader as outrageous (and I doubt that the reader who says "good for him" will be swayed by the use of this word). I would say that he exploited his notoriety by giving interviews etc., as revelling implies an enjoyment on his part which again the reasonable reader will infer but which we cannot know for sure. Sadly, a habit of talking incessantly about these horrific deeds in a prideful and arrogant way, whilst skirting the question of actual guilt, is a pattern we have seen in many other serial killers.2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:29BC:604A:5C06:B1FE (talk) 08:55, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

POV:
I tagged the article with a POV template because I feel the article (Especially the second, opening paragraph) has periods of POV writing, IE, the use of weasel words, over-descriptive text etc, which does not just deliver the facts but interprets them also. This coupled with the fact the article has almost no references means that this article may need a major rewrite. Cheers, Spawn Man (talk) 22:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

"Bikini Killer" nickname
The article currently reads that the subject was called "'the Serpent' and 'the Bikini killer' for his skill at deception and evasion."

He might have been called "The Serpent" for his skill at deception and evasion, but I doubt he was called "The Bikini Killer" for his skill at deception and evasion. I suggest changing this non sequitur. --Skb8721 (talk) 20:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * In fact, the bikinis became a signature that made it easier to connect the cases, so worse than a non sequitur, the bikinis attested to his lack of skill at deception and evasion! 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:29BC:604A:5C06:B1FE (talk) 08:47, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Background info: Name mis-spelt?
Is this a spelling mistake or am I not correctly informed? His name appears as "Hatchand Bhaonani Gurumukh Charles Sobhraj". I'm quite sure 'Hatchand' should be 'Hotchand' because his father's name was 'Hotchand' (not 'Hatchand'). In any case, this would be the wrong way to display his name. How can his father's name appear first? In my view, his name should appear as "Charles Gurumukh Hotchand Bhaonani Sobhraj". Correct me if I'm wrong. Centaur81 (talk) 07:55, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Early years
The first line in the first para reads:
 * "Sobhraj was born as Gurmukh Sobhraj to an unwed Vietnamese mother and an Indian father in Saigon."

I remember reading in "The Life and Crimes of Charles Sobhraj" that his father, Hotchand Sobhraj, was a Sindhi businessman based in Hong Kong and that his mother, Noi (often referred to as Madam Sobhraj) was Hotchand Sobhraj's Vietnamese keep. This should be added if a reliable citation can be found.

Also,
 * "As a teenager he developed personality problems and turned to petty crime."

[Possible reason] Charles was sent from Saigon to Paris for education. He developed most of his personality problems there because he was like a fish out of water. When he reached Paris, he only knew Vietnamese. He somehow learnt French a completely alien language to him and his life in school was not very pleasant. After a few years when his mother visited him, he was devastated because he could no longer converse with her in his mother tongue. This had quite a negative impact on him. I remember reading this in "The Life and Crimes of Charles Sobhraj". This info should be added if reliable citations are found. Centaur81 (talk) 07:55, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction
"After his release, he retired as a celebrity in Paris; he unexpectedly returned to Nepal, where he was arrested, tried and sentenced to life imprisonment on August 12, 2004. The Supreme Court of Nepal has finally convicted him and ordered the life imprisonment, this decision was made on 30 July 2010" Was he convicted on the former date, or the latter? It can't be both. TheMadBaron (talk) 22:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
 * This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
 * There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
 * It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
 * In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Charles Sobhraj. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080108100741/http://www.indiaenews.com:80/nepal/20071227/88314.htm to http://www.indiaenews.com/nepal/20071227/88314.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080713132314/http://www.cnn.com:80/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/07/05/nepal.sobhraj.ap/ to http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/07/05/nepal.sobhraj.ap

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 19:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Charles Sobhraj. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110625033251/http://ekendraonline.com/nepal/sobhraj-finally-convicted-life-sentenced-79.html to http://ekendraonline.com/nepal/sobhraj-finally-convicted-life-sentenced-79.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 12:37, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on Charles Sobhraj. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140224131111/http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/charles_sobraj/1.html to http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/charles_sobraj/1.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090130014448/http://tomvater.com/charles.html to http://www.tomvater.com/charles.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111005150625/http://ekendraonline.com/leisure/sobhrajs-past-revives-2281.html to http://ekendraonline.com/leisure/sobhrajs-past-revives-2281.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101205013005/http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/nepal/Inspector-who-foiled-Sobhraj/Article1-581964.aspx to http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/nepal/Inspector-who-foiled-Sobhraj/Article1-581964.aspx
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140224131111/http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/charles_sobraj/1.html to http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/charles_sobraj/1.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070330054342/http://goasia.about.com/od/nepal/a/sobhraj.htm to http://goasia.about.com/od/nepal/a/sobhraj.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 13:34, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Knippenberg's "then-wife Angela Kane"
The article refers to Knippenberg's "then-wife Angela Kane". But I believe his then-wife was not Angela Kane. If I understand correctly, his then-wife did not have the surname "Kane" until after divorcing Knippenberg, so it is anachronistic to say he was married to Angela Kane at that time. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 08:34, 21 November 2021 (UTC)


 * It would have to be his then-wife currently Angela Kane, which is still not elegant. Best to drop a surname here and perhaps add that she later married Kane (if that is what it is)? If Kane is her maiden name, then a case could be made that she was always that. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:29BC:604A:5C06:B1FE (talk) 08:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

promoting his infamy in Paris
That is an unfortunate and not quite idiomatic way of putting things; one's infamy is usually "promoted" (i.e. promulgated) by others. It could mean promoting himself (self-promotion), and given the circumstances, I guess he was doing so exploiting his notoriety - that is, riding a wave of publicity. To promote one's infamy does not really mean anything, the closest possible interpretation would be offering via public channels his services as a ruthless killer, which would be absurd. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:29BC:604A:5C06:B1FE (talk) 08:44, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

his three-woman criminal clan
These would be Leclerc and the two western women recently befriended? Could we just have the three names here? I think purple journo prose is inappropriate given the facts that are being related here. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:29BC:604A:5C06:B1FE (talk) 09:05, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Charles Shobraj to be released from Nepali jail
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/charles-sobhraj-french-serial-killer-to-be-released-after-19-years-in-nepal-jail-101671626327682.html 2400:1A00:B030:F95F:3950:F13D:1D23:2C79 (talk) 13:57, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

French?
It's obvious he is not French. Her parents are not French and he was not born in France. Marcia Bia (talk) 12:09, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "her parents"? See this source which is referenced in the article. It says He was finally declared a French citizen by 1970 through his mother since she was a natural-born citizen of a former French colony.. Jay  💬 12:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Added to the article. Jay  💬 09:20, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Sculptor
I find his sculpture offensive. We should not glorify vile cruelty. His image for me is similar to hitler. I don’t understand women who support this psychopathic behavior 2001:8003:2233:8900:6068:C909:4374:43CB (talk) 08:40, 1 January 2023 (UTC)