Talk:Charles Whitman/Archive 5

Renaming article
Hi,

I have noticed many of the other mass shooting pages are named after the specific event, not the shooter. Is there anyway we can change this? Thanks! Longhornfan2018 (talk) 21:22, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello! Article names should precisely identify what the article is written about. As this article describes some elements of Charles Whitman's life that don't relate to the shooting itself, it would be improper to rename it. I don't really know if an article about the shootings themselves would be justified, as I haven't done much research on it and don't know the state of the sourcing. You are welcome to investigate that for yourself, though. For more on the article naming policy, see WP:Article titles. -- AntiCompositeNumber (Leave a message) 00:47, 30 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much for the feedback. I'm new to this, but I have been doing a lot research on this topic, and I believe I have enough sources for the actual event to have its own page. Would it be okay if i sent you some to review? Thanks again! Longhornfan2018 (talk) 02:46, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm quite busy at the moment, so I wouldn't be able to look at the sources until Tuesday at the earliest, but probably later. If you want, you can jump into the IRC channel where someone else can probably take a look. -- AntiCompositeNumber (Leave a message) 00:52, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much. I am actually pretty busy myself with school back in session. If it's okay, I will begin gathering my sources and will tag you once I am done. If you are too busy, I will post in the IRC channel. Thanks again! Longhornfan2018 (talk) 11:50, 2 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I hope you are doing well! Thank you for your patience while I gathered a few sources. I have provided the links here:

Before I got too far along in my research, I was hoping you could tell me if I was on the right track. If I do not hear back from you, I will also post in the IRC channel. Thank you in advance for your feedback! Longhornfan2018 (talk) 19:29, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) http://www.cbsnews.com/news/revisiting-the-ut-tower-shooting/
 * 2) http://abcnews.go.com/US/university-texas-marking-50th-anniversary-tower-shooting/story?id=41043618
 * 3) http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/31/us/university-of-texas-marks-sniper-attack-with-memorial-and-new-gun-law.html?_r=0
 * 4) http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/07/29/tower-shooting-anniversary-texas-campus-carry/87746742/
 * 5) http://www.mysanantonio.com/opinion/opinion_columnists/o_ricardo_pimentel/article/Nearly-50-years-ago-bravery-at-a-UT-tower-8307034.php?cmpid=email-mobile
 * 6) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sherry-gray/the-school-shooting-that-_b_10129408.html
 * 7) http://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/96-minutes/
 * 8) https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/19/gun-violence-baton-rouge-university-of-texas-tower
 * 9) http://www.downhold.org/lowry/doc.html
 * 10) http://www.wfaa.com/mb/news/start-of-campus-carry-law-coincides-with-the-50th-anniversary-of-deadly-ut-shooting/285810925
 * 11) https://www.britannica.com/event/Texas-Tower-shooting-of-1966


 * I apologize for the links not being properly spaced out. I am still learning how to use wiki. Thanks Longhornfan2018 (talk) 19:37, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
 * That is plenty of event-specific sources to justify an article, in my mind. It appears to clearly pass the Notability (events) guideline. However, you have to consider whether making a new article would serve a greater encyclopedic purpose than editing the section in this article. If you think you can help the encyclopedia by making a new article, then by all means go for it.
 * Here's some resources you may find helpful while editing: the Markup Cheatsheet, the Tutorial, Wikipedia: The Missing Manual, and of course, how to create your first article. -- AntiCompositeNumber (Leave a message) 23:39, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I guess the reason I thought it would serve a greater encyclopedic purpose is that I think the way the article is right now, it puts the focus completely on Charles Whitman, which doesn’t seem right considering what a major event it was. A lot of people were involved and were affected by it. Also, do you think that since other mass shootings/murders have two articles, there’s kind of a precedent for separating them?

Here’s what I mean: The Aurora, Colorado shooting has 2 articles — one about the shooter and one about the actual event:
 * 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Holmes_(mass_murderer)
 * 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting

The Columbine shooting also has 2 articles:
 * 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre
 * 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold

Same thing for Virginia Tech:
 * 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
 * 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho

Do you think based on the above examples I have a good encyclopedic reason for breaking them up? I appreciate your input.Longhornfan2018 (talk) 19:46, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * If you want to write it, go for it. Instructions for starting an article are at WP:YFA. Have fun, and happy editing! -- AntiCompositeNumber (Leave a message) 23:20, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for everything!Longhornfan2018 (talk) 20:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090108204126/http://howdyyall.com:80/Texas/TodaysNews/index.cfm?GetItem=988 to http://howdyyall.com/Texas/TodaysNews/index.cfm?GetItem=988

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Dead Links
Noted dead link to reference: Hylton, Hilary (July 5, 1973). "Texas Sniper's Brother John Whitman Shot". The Palm Beach Post. p. 1. 148.177.1.224 (talk) 14:21, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Just fixed that. Thanks.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:32, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 2 external links on Charles Whitman. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes: When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070905174651/http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2007/aug/06/ut-tower-shooting-heroes-be-honored/ to http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2007/aug/06/ut-tower-shooting-heroes-be-honored/
 * Corrected formatting/usage for https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6FlJAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KQoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=804%2C861969&dq%2F

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 15:42, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Important update needed due to PNAS paper
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/12/12/1706587115 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.130.153.43 (talk) 20:46, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Death toll
The lead states that Whitman killed his wife and mother in one incident, 3 others in another incident, and 11 more specifically during his 96 minutes in the tower (with another person dying years later of complications). The University of Texas tower shooting section lists his kills as 17 during that 96 minutes while the article of that name states that 15 (including an unborn child) died on the scene during that time frame with another dying en route to the hospital and again mentions the final victim dying years later. Somebody needs to clear this up. --Khajidha (talk) 11:37, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * wife and mother (2) + 3 others (3) + 11 at the tower (11) + 1 in 2001 (1) = 17, not 15 right? Cornelius (talk) 14:40, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Officer who killed him Inaccuracy?
The intro under "University of Texas Tower Shooting" finishes by saying: "...before he was shot and killed by Austin police officers Ramiro Martinez and Houston McCoy." Yet the Ramiro Martinez article says he made up the claim and it was solely McCoy's shotgun that technically killed Whitman. Why is this? Is it a leftover error from a summary from before or are we legally supposed to say both killed him or? I've changed it by removing "Ramiro Martinez" (and "officers"->"officer"), but if my change wasn't correct for some reason please change it back. Cornelius (talk) 14:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 21 September 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Consensus not move, therefore, not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me &#124; my contributions 18:36, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

– This talk page has five archived discussions, a number of which present arguments for a qualifier. There has never been, however, an official RM regarding the article title as well as the perpetrator's standing as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Another discussion regarding a different perpetrator's name appearing as the article main title header, is currently active at Talk:Juan David Ortiz. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:43, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Charles Whitman → Charles Whitman (mass killer)
 * Charles Whitman (disambiguation) → Charles Whitman


 * Oppose. Why would there have been an RM? He is vastly more notable than the other three and receives 30 times more page views than the others put together. &mdash;Xezbeth (talk) 06:43, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment. Since the lead sentence states that subject "became infamous as the "Texas Tower Sniper"", the use of an alternative qualifier might indicate the main header as Charles Whitman (Texas Tower Sniper).   Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 12:50, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose In ictu oculi (talk) 17:58, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose The mass killer is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 07:46, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. You don't need to make RMs just because. There is no evidence that this person is not the primary topic. Nohomersryan (talk) 19:21, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that there is also the article University of Texas tower shooting and that Charles Whitman, the Texas Tower Sniper, had no notability in his lifetime and is known for this WP:SINGLEEVENT. It may be also added that Thomas Hamilton (spree killer) had a biographical entry (which no one claimed to be a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC) before it was redirected to Dunblane massacre and that Colin Ferguson (mass murderer) was redirected to 1993 Long Island Rail Road shooting. Unlike the relatively rare cases of celebrity convicts such as Robert Stroud, Caryl Chessman or Charles Manson, most criminals' names are redirected to the articles about their respective crimes. Aspects of such name redirects are currently under discussion at Talk:Juan David Ortiz and at Talk:Colin Ferguson (actor).   Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:38, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose Clear primary topic, clear historical event - this wasn't the average mass shooting. Biography makes sense. GuzzyG (talk) 13:51, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * As far as this nomination is concerned, it did not go so far as to contend that Charles Whitman should be redirected to the University of Texas tower shooting article in the above-mentioned manner of Thomas Hamilton (spree killer) → Dunblane massacre or Colin Ferguson (mass murderer) → 1993 Long Island Rail Road shooting, both of whom receive numerous Google hits, but there have been few suggestions that their biographical entries should be restored, much less become WP:PRIMARYTOPICS. Numerous other examples exist, some of which are mentioned here at Talk:Juan David Ortiz.   Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:33, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.