Talk:Charleston (dance)

West Africa
Based on what source is the statement that the rhythm of the Charleston is a traditional West African one? I hear similar claims about many forms of jazz, but without any evidence, or any examples from Africa to demonstrate it. From all I can definitively learn, Ragtime, Jazz, and Swing were unique developments of American music, which originated in the American South among 300-year-old black communities who were influenced by many traditions, including European and African music. No similar musical forms ever developed in Africa, and they were certainly not borrowed from Africa.

PlainJane 04:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC) There is ample evidence to support claims that Afro-American v dances such as the Charleston are related to African forms in much of the literature dealing with Afro-American vernacular dance. For specific reference, consult Malone (Malone, Jacqui. Steppin' on the Blues: The Visible Rhythms of African American Dance. Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1996.), though she argues for a different stage play I think as the first public outing of the charleston.

I echo your reservations about claiming charleston rhythms as _African_ rhythms specifically, though there is ample evidence that the syncopation which characterises Afro-American jazz music and dance is African in descent. We could easily say, though, that these are _Afro-American_ rhythms. To argue otherwise would be to ignore a massive body of literature and research. The authors Szwed and Marks argue that we should consider African disaporic cultural forms not as direct copies of African forms, but as their descendents. I think you'd have difficulty finding documented evidence that the rhythm charleston was in use in Africa at the time (the early 20th century), though I think you could make a reasonable assumption that it was.

Rhythm
It would be useful to have a sample of the rhythm, in musical notation. I'll make up an image if someone will describe it, but since the rhythm is prominently mentioned but not described.... Adam Cuerden 22:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

PlainJane 04:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC) I'm reasonably certain it's crotchet, crotchet, dotted crotchet (see dotted note), quaver, crotchet. you'd need to double check that with a musician though.

Sounds right to me! Made it and added it in, but didn't position in very well, it must be admitted. If someone wanted to tweak? (Please?) Adam Cuerden 18:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

PlainJane 23:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC) It looks pretty good, except.... one of the key features of swing dances like charleston is that their basic rhythms cross over bars - so it's an 8 count basic rather than a 4... which is kind of nitpicking i guess. I don't really know enough about this to comment intelligently beyond this. lindy hop is also usually based on the same 8 count rhythm - one of the clear markers of its development from charleston.

looks good though!

Adam Cuerden 17:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC) Do you mean there should be two bars of it, that each note should be twice the length, or that the bar line should be positioned differently? Will fix it if I know how. (Or if the NLS has a score for a Charleston I could look at. Hmm. And I'd bet it'd be out of copyright... Well, Monday.)

PlainJane 02:03, 1 April 2006 (UTC) I mean that the 'basic charleston' step is 8 beats long - two bars of 4. Which is that basic rhythm (crotchet, crotchet, dotted crochet, quaver, crochet) repeated so it becomes: crotchet, crotchet, dotted crochet, quaver, crochet (4 counts/1 bar) crotchet, crotchet, dotted crochet, quaver, crochet (the final 4 counts/to make 2 bars). Which kind of makes very little sense to a musician I guess, but is fundamental for dancing... we would never think of the Charleston 'basic' as only 4 counts long. We would vary that basic (ie extend it, shorten, etc), as it's only a basic outline of what we could do, but we'd still think of the basic as '8 counts'... similarly, a lindy hopper thinks in terms of phrases, but thinks of these phrases as 'sets of 8' - so a phrase is 4 sets of 8 to a lindy hopper, rather than 8 sets of 4.

Right! Fixed! And if you ever need something like that for another dance page, do leave a note on my talk page - it's easy enough =) Adam Cuerden 17:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

noqu 15:05, 2 April 2006 (UTC) Hmm, but I think it should be dotted 8ths and a 16th (and not dotted quarters and an 8th as in your image). Counting the quarters in your image, you get 5 per bar.

...Damn. Feel liuke an idiot for not spotting that. I'll check some music sheels at the National Library of Scotland tomorrow, and go by what they have. Adam Cuerden 18:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Haven't gotten in yet: I suffer badly from exhaustion, I fear. Seeing a doctor about it today, and hopefully'll be in to the library later this week. Adam Cuerden 07:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

If this is an American dance predominantly, wouldn't it make more sense to use the American terminology for the notes? (in this case: quarter, quarter, dotted eighth, sixteenth, quarter) I only ask because of Wikipedia's policy on dialects. --UNHchabo 02:58, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

recent additions to this 'charleston' article
I've recently added some sections to this article on 'charleston', specifically in reference to 20s solo charleston. I'm relatively unfamiliar with editing articles on wikipedia, and should no doubt have hesitated before adding content. All apologies.

I do have some problems with much of the content on this page - it seems out of date. I'm also reluctant to generalise from local dance practices in local scenes to make blanket statements about 'charleston' generally. The writing style could be tidied up a bit as well...

My knowledge of the history of 20s solo charleston is sketchy, so I've not added any.

Please comment ...

editing and restructuring
PlainJane 04:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC) I have added some information to this entry on Charleston, restructured some parts, clarified some descriptions and changed the gender-specific language from 'lady' and 'man' to 'leader and follower'. I've included a reference to the fact that partner charleston was traditionally seen as a man/woman dance, but that it was then and is now often danced by men or women together.

Much of the description of the actual charleston steps could probably be moved to Charleston (dance move). A description of solo 30s/40s charleston could be added to the 'solo' section, even if it's just a single sentence noting the difference. Some references to specific dancers could be included here (eg George Snowden), as could some references to films which feature charleston footage.

Recent 'Irish history' addition
The following has been added to the article:

"'It has also been suggested that the Charleston or a very much faster variation of this dance came from a 300 year old Irish Slip jig. If you were to consider the look that the black African dance stance took, which would be a stooped over cool look, as compared to the straight up and down look of the Charlston, in that the look can more resemble watching Irish folk dancing, than cool swinging. Then conider that most of these dances as we remember the flapper and the roaring 20s, was more identifed with Chicago, which at that time was predominantly Irish.'"

There are some serious problems with the written expression which I don't have time to edit properly. I suspect that there may be a grain of truth in this 'alternate history'. It's certainly the case the tap dancing has Irish ancestors or influences. But I'm not sure whether there's sufficient evidence to support adding this as an 'alternate history' in itself. I can't remember reading anything specifically about it (and I'm not anywhere near my books right now). PlainJane 11:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Controversial claim need to be sourced, more so than other parts of an article. Unless someone can provide a reliable source for this alternate history soon, I think it should probably be deleted. —Cswrye 04:54, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

This page...
This page has been edited too many times recently and it should be noted that this is the first rendition:

{Info dump of older version removed. Not needed. Old versions can be seen just fine in the page's history.}


 * So, let me try to understand this. You are wanting to revert back to an older version of the page, correct?  The version you added above is not the first version of this page.  That can be found here, and is much more primative and unformatted than the current version.  Not sure when your version is from, but it's at least more recent than that.
 * But, the bigger issue is, why? Why to you feel that the page needs to revert back to an older version?  What's wrong with the current version that the reverting solves?  Saying it was "editied too many times recently" does not make a lot of sense to me.  Continual editing of articles is one of the core ideas of most any Wiki project, including this one.  There is no final state of an article.
 * If you see specific problems with the current page, please, express them of fix them. But blanket reversion of the article, tossing out how many weeks or months of other people's work and effort, is really not the correct way to go about things here. - TexasAndroid 19:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I am concerned about the language of the posted article stating "Although the step known as "Jay-Bird", and other specific movement sequences are of Afro-American origin, no record of the Charleston being performed on the plantation has been discovered."

The part of the article, "...no record of the Charleston being performed on the plantation has been discovered", is offensive. It implies Blacks were limited to entertaining themselves (and others) only on the plantation, even in the 1920's. Many years after the Emancipation Proclamation, Blacks were moving up in society and attaining relative wealth and opportunity during this time. They were not still limited to the plantation as one implies. It also implies that if it were not written or read about on the 'plantation', then it did not happen. So much of African-American history, as well as Afrikan history relies on the accuracy of the spoken word and the traditional written word. For 1000’s of years many African cultures relied on the tradition of accurate history and story telling. When one reviews African-American history it is also imperative to review all aspects. In the Black Churches, and in jubilation, some of these leg movements, now familiar as 'The Charleston, or Black Bottom', without their ‘provocative’ nature were quite common. Also it is not necessarily the specific movements of the Charleston, but the rhythm and syncopation, spacing and placement of steps and rhythm that is familiar to Afrikan roots, which permeates in all aspects of now, African-American tradition, music, art, culture and dance, speech, cadence and poetry/literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.237.102.178 (talk) 23:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

300 BPM, lol. No I think not, 100 to 120 BPM. Drum and Bass is 170 BPM. The Charleston is a breakbeat which may lead people to believe it is faster than it really is, but NO MUSIC IS 300 BPM. Can we change this please. (Swing & Big Band Composer) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.19.90.133 (talk) 00:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Mae Barnes
Should Mae Barnes be mentioned in this article? According to several sources I found in starting her article - such as this obituary - she was credited with introducing the dance to Broadway in 1924. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Dance move has a name?
What is the dance move in the photo that Josephine Baker is doing in the photo? It's where one crosses the hands over to the opposite knee while moving the knees horizontally. I've seen it called "wobbly knees" or "bees knees" but is that really what it is called? Quite a few videos of the Charleston have it in it. Would that be worth putting into the article? Ll1324 (talk) 22:38, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, it would be worth it. That illusion seems to be commonly associated with the Charleston dance today, to the extent that many people think that it IS the Charleston. But we need citations. "Bee's Knees" is an expression from the 1920s period, but does it really refer to this dance? Wastrel Way (talk) 17:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC) Eric

More history info
I think it would be a great idea to add information from this source. I think the history of Jazz and its immediate predecessors are tightly intertwined:

https://www.ccpl.org/charleston-time-machine/tracing-roots-charleston-dance

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 07:06, 26 April 2022 (UTC)