Talk:Charlie Fonville/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Overall, it looks good. I'll just run through the minor issues.


 * Lead
 * I could be wrong (it's pretty hard to tell at the moment), but I don't think dates should be linked (first sentence).
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The lead should be expanded. You could just bulk out the brief description of his career with a bit more detail.
 * I added a bit. I split his successful years from his later years.  Maybe my co-author will have more.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Early years
 * "Following Charlie's lone track season at Detroit's Miller High School, he was named Michigan High School Track & Field Athlete of the Year for his first-place performance at the Detroit City League Meet; Fonville's winning effort in the shot put was a full five-feet better than the state champion's." Remove the semi-colon and split into two sentences.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "a full" is at best redundant and at worst POV. Can easily be removed.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "better than the state champion's" is a little clumsy. Try "better than that of the state champion."
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Had they not been disqualified in the 440, the two would have won the meet; instead, they finished in second place." Could be better as "They finished in second place at the meet; their disqualification in the 440 preventing them from winning."
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Big Ten shot put record in 1947
 * The quote should be introduced, for example "Henry J. McCormick, of the Wisconsin State Journal, reported that..." and then the quote.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * World record in 1948
 * "Fonville again won the Big Ten indoor shot put championship in 1948." The 'again' would be better after the 'Big Ten indoor shot put championship', so "Fonville won the Big Ten indoor shot put championship again in 1948."
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "The previous mark of 57 feet 1 inch (17.4 m) (set by Jack Torrance) had stood since 1934." To avoid the clumsy situation of two sets of parentheses in a row, it could be written as "The previous mark of 57 feet 1 inch (17.4 m), set by Jack Torrance, had stood since 1934."
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The long United Press quote would probably be better if you used a quote template to separate it from the text.
 * O.k.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "ailing back" could be better as "back injury".
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Same with the next long quote.
 * I don't think two such quote extractions would look good in the section.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * His son's name?


 * Back injury and Olympic disappointment
 * "One columnist noted..." this quote could use the quote template.
 * I am varying the templates.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Sports editor Tom Smith was inspired to write this tribute to Fonville:" Sports editor of what? The Associated Press? Is not made very clear.
 * Waukeha Daily Freeman Sports editor.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This whole quote should undoubtedly use the quote template.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Per WP:ELLIPSIS, ". . ." is better rendered as "...". I don't know then what "[]" means. Is this missing text?
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a few more in other sections that you missed. Aptery  gial  23:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Did I get them all now.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:09, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I got the last one. Aptery  gial  22:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "In early November, doctors operated on Fonville, placing "a bone graft onto his cracked vertebrae."" You could get away with not using the quotation marks here at all.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comeback in 1950
 * The Michiganensian quote should probably be written in your own words. There is nothing there which really qualifies the need to have a quote at all.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "This would have taken second place in the 1948 Olympics..." What would have taken place at the 1948 Olympics? His comeback?
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "The Wisconsin State Journal'" has a spillover '.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Same with The Wisconsin State Journal as with the Michiganensian. Nothing here that cannot be said without the quote.
 * It is encyclopedic to read the language of the day, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine. Aptery  gial  22:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This paragraph never explicitly says that he retired.


 * Later years
 * The second cite in this paragraph would be better at the end of the sentence.
 * I think you mean the third.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did. Aptery  gial  22:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The "--" would be better as an –.
 * done--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't know how he died?


 * General
 * The redlink in the See also section should direct to World record progression shot put men.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The References section should be deleted and the Notes section renamed to References.
 * Incorrect. See MOS.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My initial impression was that the on entry in the references section did not justify having the section. However, this is certainly not a deal breaker, and if you could just point me to the part of the MOS that I may have missed, I'll give you the OK here. Aptery  gial  23:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Citing_sources is the first place I see guidance although it is not MOS. If you actually want an MOS link, let me know and I will troll.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:03, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK. I'm happy with that (I spent a while going through the MOS after your original "Incorrect. See MOS" reply.) Aptery  gial  22:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Noted" is overused a little. It is mentioned in Words to avoid. I haven't really come across too much real opposition to it, but where possible it should be substituted with "said".
 * I made some changes.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:54, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "... with a distance", Should always have the word "throw" at the end, so "a 55 feet 1 inch (16.8 m) throw" instead of "a 55 feet 1 inch (16.8 m)".
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A little bit of underlinking. Some bits (especially to do with his surgery) could be linked.
 * Aside from a few cities, I don't see much else to link.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Needs a persondata box.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Non-breaking spaces should be added, per WP:NBSP.

This is a really good article. I would suggest you seriously consider trying to get this to FA standard. A quick run through the article shows that it is quite close to the FA criteria.

Anyway, I'll put the article on hold and wait for these issues to be addressed. Let me know when you believe you have addressed them or if you have any further questions.

Cheers, Aptery  gial  06:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Further comment
 * My original intention when I said that you should use the quote template for some of the longer quotes was that you would leave the text as is (i.e. the introduction to the quote that was already in existence) and just put the quote template around the quote itself. For example:

Sports editor Tom Smith was inspired to write this tribute to Fonville:
 * "Learning that Charley Fonville, Michigan shot putting ace, will no longer thrill the crowds with his mammoth heaves was a sickening shock. Fonville, who handled the 16 lb shot like the average citizen does a baseball, might have been the greatest in the history of the event.  Tall, powerful and perfectly co-ordinated, he was becoming the idol of weight fans throughout the nation.  He destroyed the lingering notion that a good shot put man had to resemble a two-legged hippo.  He gave hope to the athletes who were big -- but didn't seem big enough. At the Big Nine track meet at Madison, Wisconsin in the spring of this year one could discover exactly how much the soft spoken Negro had contributed. . . . Every time he came on the line murmurs of anticipation [] through the stands.  The moment the ball left his hands all eyes followed it in lumbering flight. . . . When [the judge] reported the Western Conference record had been broken an outburst, like wind from a giant bellows, popped from the stands.  Though this was striking in itself the best treat remained to the last.  After Fonville came back from the discus even he was swamped with young and eager autograph hunters.  With only a request for 'no shoving' the symmetrically perfect athlete sat down and fulfilled his obligation of fame." 

Would simply become:

Sports editor Tom Smith was inspired to write this tribute to Fonville: ""Learning that Charley Fonville, Michigan shot putting ace, will no longer thrill the crowds with his mammoth heaves was a sickening shock. Fonville, who handled the 16 lb shot like the average citizen does a baseball, might have been the greatest in the history of the event. Tall, powerful and perfectly co-ordinated, he was becoming the idol of weight fans throughout the nation. He destroyed the lingering notion that a good shot put man had to resemble a two-legged hippo. He gave hope to the athletes who were big -- but didn't seem big enough. At the Big Nine track meet at Madison, Wisconsin in the spring of this year one could discover exactly how much the soft spoken Negro had contributed. . . . Every time he came on the line murmurs of anticipation [] through the stands. The moment the ball left his hands all eyes followed it in lumbering flight. . . . When [the judge] reported the Western Conference record had been broken an outburst, like wind from a giant bellows, popped from the stands. Though this was striking in itself the best treat remained to the last. After Fonville came back from the discus even he was swamped with young and eager autograph hunters. With only a request for 'no shoving' the symmetrically perfect athlete sat down and fulfilled his obligation of fame.""

...using the quote template, though (obviously) not in italics. My intention was merely to seperate the longer quotes from the text. Now what you have is a jumbled selection of quotation templates. The quotebox at the top of World record in 1948 really turns the formatting in that section to chaos, at least on my screen; the picture suddenly cuts right through some of the text and jams it against the quotebox. Would this be something that you would be willing to re-do? Aptery gial  23:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was just experimenting. I changed it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:18, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I thought I'd point out, since we are nearing a week on hold, that I have no intention to call the deadline; I will not arbitrarily assess the article at the seven day point. I am more than satisfied to wait until you both are happy to submit it for a final review. As it stands, though, there are only a few outstanding issues from the review which have not yet been adressed. This page is on my watchlist, but it might be better to let me know on my talk page when you've got everything. Happy holidays, Aptery  gial  12:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Within reason, of course. I will close this before the New Year. Aptery  gial  05:09, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Pretty much anything currently not responded to is a function of my co-author having created the article a long time ago from sources I don't have access to. I don't know the sons name, details on retirement, etc.  I think you may end up making your final evaluation on the current version of the article because he is no longer subscribed to the information source he used at first.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:56, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * His son's name is Carl Eric Fonville, according to the source. Non-breaking spaces need adding, and then I'll run through the article again. Aptery  gial  04:51, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and ndashes between the dates in the first sentence. Aptery  gial  07:40, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Final Review
Apologies for not returning sooner; RL can be a demon and we are all better off without it. ;)

I went through and corrected the minor MOS issues I had with the article, and I believe that it is now ready to pass.


 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

I concluded my original review by saying that a shot at FAC was worthwhile, and while I still believe that is true, I would recommend an independent copyedit to clear up a few clunky sentences and flow issues. Anyway, good luck with future article work and whatever you decide to do with this article. Aptery gial  01:54, 4 January 2009 (UTC)