Talk:Charlotte Amalie of Hesse-Kassel

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Request move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 17:23, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Overall think people who revert the edits are interested in Wikialty (something is true because I can get other Users to agree to it) then the actual informative content of the articles relating the Kassel branch of the former ruling house of Hesse, but if all interested, overall issue under way at Talk:William VIII, Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel Cladeal832 (talk) 04:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Google scholar searches indicate "Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel" is by far the more usual spelling as opposed to "Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel" by a margin of 233–52. More general searches for "Hesse-Cassel" and "Hesse-Kassel" give a margin of 1660–746, with many of the 746 in foreign languages and all of the 1660 in English. Finally, as Kassel was called Cassel until 1926, this individual would have been known as Hesse-Cassel throughout their entire life, and not as "Hesse-Kassel". DrKiernan (talk) 07:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Strongly oppose as elsewhere. This is nationalist bad faith. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

If interested; see talk page for Landgravine Louise Caroline of Hesse-Cassel Cladeal832 (talk) 21:20, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move as before. See Suspected sock puppets/Cladeal832. JPG-GR (talk) 01:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is an actual arguement. Britannica Encyclopedia and Columbia Encyclopedia use Hesse-Kassel as well many other reference source. Google Scholar in the recent articles section shows more hits for Hesse-Kassel then Hesse-Cassel and if Editors check Catherine of Aragon, while during her lifetime Katherine was used, the fact that most modern scholars use Catherine trumps that. Kassel is the proper name in English today and Cassel has been used offically since 1926 so pretty sure that's a sign it's out-of-date. Also the Move Request guideline state that wider consensus is better then one for a few articles. Quote "Consensus decisions in specific cases are not expected to automatically override consensus on a wider scale" Since all but 6 articles use Hesse-Kassel is clear sign of wider consensus then this article to be moved then just this one discussion. Also refer to Talk:Hesse-Kassel and see that although consensus is apparently not being reached on this page for the Danish Queen Consort, it already has been for the Hesse-Cassel vs. Hesse-Kassel question. Cladeal832 (talk)
 * Strongly and oppose disruptive move request by single-purpose account. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I intend this !vote to be counted against any and all move requests by this single purpose account. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This ain't a single-purpose account by any stretch of the imagination looking at the full course of contributions, and the arguments based on coverage in modern English-language sources above and in this edit indicates there is something worthy of discussion at the least, and action. Knepflerle (talk) 23:13, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Strongly Agree Agree with the above mentioned points. Please try not to make this personal. MeanLevels (talk) 22:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * this shows a WP:CANVASS violation, in addition to the unscrupulous course of requesting the same move in less than two weeks. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That implies that I either send it out to multiple users, which I didn't, or that I tried to influence them, which I didn't. I send a message to one user who came to this discussion on his or her own and ask that since you stated that I was the only one interest in moving, thought he or she would like to know about User:PMAnderson skewing the discussion and leaving that User out. I notice again that User:PMAnderson is making me the issue and still won't argue Kassel issue beyond overblown statements. Cladeal832 (talk) 22:52, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree the vast majority of other related articles use Hesse-Kassel JLIBPB (talk) 23:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * First contributions from this editor after a six-plus month break. JPG-GR (talk) 23:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the welcome back and still agree with the move request JLIBPB (talk) 23:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * User:JPG-GR doesn't state whether he or she agrees or disagrees and why (betting it's an issue with me rather then an actual point for Hesse-Cassel). Shows how poor and sort of ignorant that still don't get that Kassel is an English word. Look it up, it's the name of the city. Cassel has been shown not be to used since 1926 repeatly.Cladeal832 (talk) 23:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It is notably unusual editing behaviour however. The closing admin may regard it or disregard it.  It's the quality of argument and consensus it achieves which matters, not the number of people saying agree or disagree.  There is no obligation for JPG-GR to express an opinion on the move request.  Knepflerle (talk) 00:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * So the quality of "Enough already" and "Why are we bothering with non-native English speaker" are on par with all the other arguements? Cladeal832 (talk) 16:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If anyone has used them, of course not - I never said otherwise. English-language usage is the unique figure-of-merit, though you'd never guess from this discussion.  I have not, however, seen any comments about non-native speakers.  The usage evidence presented so far is (surprisingly) unequivocal as regards modern English usage - the closing admin will do well to idntify this in an incredibly low signal to noise ratio discussion. Knepflerle (talk) 17:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, after hopefully reading the Talk page here as well as the other Hesse-Cassel articles, are you, User:Knepflerle, neutral? Mean I'd get that since you're apparently tryint to mediate (thanks by the way) the discussion. If neutral, that's fine, but really, for my own sake, what exactly wasn't kosher with the points I was bring up? Just feel like I bother to read the opposition points and take them on while being ignored for Wikieaucracy (although for sure worst things in this life) Cladeal832 (talk) 04:31, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Putting the personal attack aside, I haven't voiced an opinion yet and honestly don't intend to. I'm just a WP:RM journeyman. JPG-GR (talk) 01:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree Kassel is the name use in English for the city. Disagree with silly prejudice against non-Anglophones. Think there have been many more good reasons for Kassel compared with CasselTodkvi5832 (talk) 02:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * First edit by this account in over six months. DrKiernan (talk) 08:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All that I really hope is that instead of making this a Wikipedia bureaucratic thing or personal about me, just deal with the arguement at hand. Cladeal832 (talk) 04:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Notice that, in the Google Scholar search, the Journal of Modern History, the leading journal of European history, uses "Hesse-Kassel". So, among my books, do John Merriman's A History of Modern Europe, a standard textbook; James Sheehan's German History 1770-1866, the standard English-language work on that period of German history; McKay and Scott's The Rise of the Great Powers 1648-1815, a standard work on early modern diplomatic history; and various others. That is also the name used by Encyclopedia Britannica and the Columbia Encyclopedia. It is also essentially true that while the translated name "Hesse" remains in general use in English for the region, the anglicized "Cassel" is very rarely used, and the city is normally called "Kassel." It is not wikipedia's job to create uniformity when the usage itself is not uniform. And the standard usage at the beginning of the 21st century is, indeed, "Hesse-Kassel," and not either "Hesse-Cassel" or "Hessen-Kassel." john k 21:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Also: looking at JSTOR searches, the American Historical Review (the main American historical journal), as well as the Sixteenth Century Journal and the German Studies Review use "Hesse-Kassel", all in recent articles. The only title match for "Hesse-Cassel" is from the Journal of Economic History. Also note that many of the results for "Hesse-Cassel" in the Google Scholar search come from older sources - one is from 1912. Cladeal832 (talk) 04:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose For the same reasons as before, but this time with the additional reason that the proposer of the move is a vote canvasser, who may be employing either sockpuppets or meatpuppets in an attempt to vote-stack. The subject of this article was never known as "Hesse-Kassel" and was always known as "Hesse-Cassel". I see no reason to alter their surname to a modern neologism, when the spelling that they used themselves is perfectly consistent with an accepted norm. DrKiernan (talk) 08:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for another personal attack. I don't use sock-puppets, and no I don't canvass for votes. Just that you stated you were a librarian and use that creditial to state that Hesse-Cassel is used more often, but solely for an FYI thing, just wanted to let you know about this other information that know realize you must have already ready and ignored from the Talk:Hesse-Kassel. I didn't even ask for you to vote, let alone which way to vote, which is requirement of canvassing. Show that other editors make actual notice that one the "more coherant" arguement requirement for a move, the points I have brought up are actual better. This exactly why Britannica is not scared of Wikipedia. They would never spelt Cassel for one article and use Kassel for the same person's sibling. Of the nearly 50 article titles and over one thousand articles that use it, only 7 use Hesse-Cassel in just the title so pretty sign of wider consensus including Category:House of Hesse-Kassel. Also note that 1911 edition Britannica gives "Hesse-Cassel" while the current one uses "Hesse-Kassel". If Britannica is able to update, surely Wikipedia will too. Cladeal832 (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Still Agree think new admins ought to be used to objectively look over this. Fear that opinions not made admins will not be counted nor are admin willing to be objective. Hesse-Kassel ought to link up with JLIBPB (talk) 19:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

66.185.217.73 (talk): This anonymous user is an IP in Ontario, Canada and shows a distinctive editing pattern of no edit summaries and a large number of edits to nobility articles, including those of Hesse-Cassel.

User:Cladeal832 shows a distinctive editing pattern of few to no edit summaries and a large number of edits to nobility articles, including those of Hesse-Cassel. They also edit from Ontario IP addresses.

User:MeanLevels shows a distinctive editing pattern of few to no edit summaries and a large number of edits to nobility articles, including those of Hesse-Cassel. They are also interested in Ontario related subject matter.

User:JLIBPB shows a distinctive editing pattern of few to no edit summaries and a large number of edits to nobility articles, including those of Hesse-Cassel. They are also interested in Ontario-related subject matter.

User:Todkvi5832 shows a distinctive editing pattern of few to no edit summaries and a large number of edits to nobility articles, including those of Hesse-Cassel. The username ends in the same three letter abbreviation as Cladeal832.

All five have "!voted" at least once in related move debates and occasionally edit each others' comments: Talk:Princess Louise Caroline of Hesse-Cassel        . DrKiernan (talk) 14:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hesse-Cassel or Hesse-Kassel
possibly foolishly, I have re-opened the C-or-K naming dispute at Talk:William VIII, Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel. If you have a strong opinion either way as to whether we should use the C form or the K form in the articles in question, please express it there. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 09:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in process
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:William VIII, Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RFC bot 09:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)