Talk:Chełmno Land

Old Talk
I changed 'sectioned' to 'divided' and 'bishoprics' to 'dioceses' (both more common English usages). The huge pile of names in the last part of the article is impenetrable. I suppose that 'border to' should be 'border of'. --User:MichaelTinkler 17:51, 25 February 2002


 * I have changed spelling of this area's name. Kulmerland is German name only. It has nothing to do with English. -- User:Von Fiszman (Talk | contribs) at 16:48, 11 January 2004.

1. Polish: Ziemia Chelminska, German: Kulmerland, English: Culmland. -er' does not exist in English. English name in English Wikipedia, please.

2. Chelmno Land was settled by Lekhitic tribes long time before any province of Poland was created. It is proven by archeological researches (Old Prussian settlements started about 20 kilometers north of Osa river in 10th century. Later (10th-13th centuries) Polish settlement moved even more north. Almost all names in the area are of Slavonic origins, in contrary to former Gallindia or Pomesania. You do not have to be a scientist to check it.

3. Chelmno Land is not a part of Prussia, because; a) there is no land named Prussia at present. b) was not inhabited by Old Prussians, at least in historical times. c) historically it is a separate region.

4. ''Since the 20th century conquest it is a part of Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodship. '' - What are you writing about?

5. Kulm is German. I do not see any reason why for the Polish town would be used German name in English Wikipedia.

6. The place names comprising 'cholm element are very common in Poland. Latin name in the middle of Central Europe? 1000 kilometers from Romanic languages area. It is creazy.

7. The following text is a Polish wikipedia entry.

I have written at least the first part of the entry. Belive me, it is not from Polish Wikipedia.

8. English names: Chelmno Land (or Culmland or Culm Land), Warmia, Sambia. Leave German names for German Wikipedia.

9. Land belonging to Poland till 1228 was undoubtelly recovered in 1466. I suppose that both understand the mening of the word.

Regards, -- User:Yeti 00:04, 25 February 2004

Old Map of Culmerland in Altes Preussenland - Ancient Prussia
Old Map of Culmerland/Kulmerland in Prussia

Wikipedia article Chelmno Land as of Feb, Mar 2006 is completely oneside POV. It does not portrait factual history. MG 2/2/2006, 3/10/2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.39.36 (talk • contribs) 00:08, 10 March 2006


 * To improve the article, it would help if you listed here which text you disagree with. Olessi 18:25, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Maps of areas mentioned..
I am a visual person. Can we have the ancient and modern maps of Chelmno Land as well as a map showing the location within Europe. Thanks --Jim Jacobs 05:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Name?
In was wondering about the current name "Chełmno Land" which according to post 1990- Google Books hits is not used at all:
 * "Chełmno Land" date:1990-2008 0
 * "Chelmno Land" date:1990-2008 2
 * "District of Chelmno" date:1990-2008 3

This compares to
 * "Kulmerland" date:1990-2008 54
 * "Kulmerland" -Komet -ship -Schiff -sea date:1990-2008 41 (excluding uses that point to Kulmerland (ship) of WW2)
 * Kulmerland" +the -Komet -ship -Schiff -sea date:1990-2008 15 (excluding uses that point to Kulmerland (ship) of WW2) enforcing English use
 * Kulmerland" +das -Komet -ship -Schiff -sea date:1990-2008 26 (excluding uses that point to Kulmerland (ship) of WW2) enforcing German use
 * "Culmerland" date:1990-2008 7
 * "Kulmer Land" date:1990-2008 78 (mostly in German)
 * "Kulm land" date:1990-2008 0
 * "Culm land" date:1990-2008 0
 * "Culmer Land" date:1990-2008 1
 * "ziemia chełmińska" date:1990-2008 19
 * "ziemia chelminska" date:1990-2008 4

Thus, I suggest a move to "Kulmerland", as used in English, among others on Google Scholar, by -- Matthead Discuß   20:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Medieval Missionary: A Study of the Conversion of Northern Europe Ad 500 to 1300, by James Thayer Addison, 2003
 * The Close of the Middle Ages 1273 to 1494 V3, by Sir R. Lodge - History - 2005
 * Castles of the Western World: With 240 Illustrations, by Armin Tuulse - Architecture - 2002
 * Social System, Rationality and Revolution, by Leszek Nowak, Marcin Paprzycki - Social Science - 1993
 * Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages, by André Vauchez, Richard Barrie Dobson, Michael Lapidge - History - 2001
 * Teutonic Knight by David Nicolle, Graham Turner - History - 2007 - 64 pages


 * I am not convinced; your above numbers don't exclude German language publications for Kulmerland, for example.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Does not convinced also apply for the current title? I have listed 6 clearly English books above, taken from the first page with 10 listed, of the above 41 hits for the non-floating "Kulmerland". And there are also the hits for "Culmerland", almost all in English. Anyway, English use can be easily enforced with "the", which yields 16 hits compared to 26 German (by "das"). So more modern books on Kulmerland are published in German rather than in English (or Polish), hardly surprising. Besides, does that support the current title in any way, which still stands at 0 with the diacritic, and 2 without? And these two are odd mixtures of German and English published in Poland - as is this edit. Reminds also of the article created under "Chełmno law" instead the proper Kulm law. The land was and is defined by the deal between Conrad and the Order, and subsequent 700+ years of German settlement. -- Matthead Discuß   02:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * May I suggest a WP:RM? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * May I suggest doing as you did several times elsewhere - moving, and salting the redirect to prevent restoration? -- Matthead Discuß   22:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Matthead Discuß   20:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Matthead, may I ask you to revert this rename and file a proper WP:RM instead, as Piotrus suggested above ? --Lysytalk 07:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The google hits presented by Matthead are related not to Chelmno land but to a German ship named "Kulmerland". --Lysytalk 06:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 03:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Kulmerland → Province of Culm or Culmer Land or Culm land— most common spellings in English for the historic German period of the province.--Termer (talk) 05:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Object. Kulmerland (Polish administrative region of ziemia) is not the same as its bishopric.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: This article seems to be not about a Polish administrative region but about the German period. The bottom line, the title should be spelled in English and I have already suggested an alternative since the bishopric was only a part of the historic German province, other parts were administrated by the Teutonic knights. --Termer (talk) 05:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

PS. renaming the article that speaks about the German period Culmerland, Culm land might work even better than Province of Culm currently suggested.--Termer (talk) 05:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

There already exists Bishopric of Culm (Chełmno), although I don't see the need to include double naming in that title. Olessi (talk) 15:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that the articles should be merged? The current article title clearly violates WP:NPOV since the place is known by 2 different names given by either the German or Polish rule. Changing it to an administrative unit would solve the problem. And I noticed there are already Chełmno Voivodeship and Chełmno County so the Polish periods are covered.--Termer (talk) 17:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, one of the most common names in English for the region that was ruled by the German Bishopric of Culm (Chełmno) and Teutonic knights would be Province of Culm (45 returns), and there is also one Province of Kulmerland. Should we go for Province of Culm (Kulmerland ziemia chełmińska) to cover the German era of the region?--Termer (talk) 18:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is my understanding of the territory's historical progression:
 * "Chełmno Land", battleground between Poles and Prussians from the 11th-13th centuries
 * "Kulmerland", the launching point of the Teutonic Knights' invasion of Prussia beginning in the 1230s
 * Bishopric of Culm, created in 1243. The bishops only received a third of the Kulmerland. Like the bishops of Samland and Pomesania, the bishops of Culm were more subordinated to the Knights than the Bishops of Warmia. The rest of the Kulmerland territory was divided amongst Komturei (i.e. Strasburg, Brattian) run by Teutonic Knights.
 * Chełmno Voivodeship/Palatinate, subdivision of Royal Prussia within Poland/Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from 1466. Included Chełmno County.
 * Kreis Culm, district of Prussian West Prussia. Formed in 1772. Since Thorn/Toruń was not annexed by Prussia until 1793, I presume the Chełmno Voivodeship lasted until 1793/95, even though Kulm/Chełmno was annexed by Prussia in 1772.
 * Bydgoszcz Department, part of the Duchy of Warsaw (1807-1815), after which it reverted to Prussian West Prussia
 * Chełmno County, part of the Pomeranian Voivodeship (1919-1939) of the Second Polish Republic
 * Annexed into Nazi Germany as part of Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussia in 1939. The town was included within Landkreis Kulm (renamed Landkreis Kulm (Weichsel) in 1941).
 * Included within Poland's Bydgoszcz Voivodeship (1946-1975), Toruń Voivodeship (1975-1988), Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship (1988-).

Based on that summary, a suggestion would be to have the Kulmerland article focus on the period until 1466, including the Bishopric of Culm and the Komturei. Olessi (talk) 19:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And the title for the article including the Bishopric of Culm and the Komturei would be...? I'd suggest going for Province of Culm or Culmer Land like in similar cases, former German provinces in the region Kurland, Estland, Livland etc. are using the most common English names on WP instead of historic and/or traditional German versions.--Termer (talk) 20:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

PS. Shouldn't Komturei be in the context Commandry? I think Komturei refers to a rank -Commandries of the Teutonic Knights versus Commandry, that was a regional unit.--Termer (talk) 21:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Kulmerland, Chelmno land
Apparently the article was moved based on this discussion above, which was used as a pretext for moving the article and salting the redirect (so that it couldn't be moved back). It also seems that most of the hits for the German name "Kulmerland" were for a ... ship, rather than a place.

Most strikingly though is that the claim that there is 0 hits for "Chelmno land" is completely false, as evidenced by the very gbook link provided - in fact that very link shows 63 hits.

Now, ok, I understand that if we're talking about the part of history, 1226–1466, when this place was a Teutonic province then Kulmerland might be the appropriate title. However, currently the article is totally schizophrenic. The text is obviously about more than just this place's time as a Teutonic province - the history goes from 1065 until 1945 (and should probably go further into near past). Yet the infobox, which I'm about to delete since it is not appropriate for THIS article, is about the 1226–1466 period.

So what I think should be done is that a proper "Kulmerland" article on the Teutonic province for 1226-1446 should be created (though the title Kulmerland (Teutonic province) might be better, while this more general article should be moved (ugh, manually) back to "Chelmno land".Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:27, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Btw, if an article starts with "x is a German name for..." then that pretty clearly indicates that the article title is inappropriate. We don't have an article for Dalmatiner which says "Dalmatiner is a German name for a Dalmatian..." either, just a redirect to "Dalmatian". This is the English wikipedia.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:34, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have time to rewrite/split the article, great. I think your split proposal makes sense. Alternatively, looking at the pl wiki, note that the article there covers the territory history up to present. If we mirror this, then the article could be moved to the Polish name, as it would no longer be about historical, but present entity. Within the article, of course, it would make sense to have a section entitled Kulmerland, about the period it was a Teutonic province. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk 20:14, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, this article already does cover the history of the region from 1050 or so until 1945. The bogus nature of this article can also been seen in the first sentence: "Kulmerland is the German name for ...". It's basically as if someone moved the article on New England to Neuengland and changed the first sentence of that article to "Neuengland is the German name for..." So the fundamental problem here is getting the article moved back to the name it should be under and fixing the disruptive salting of the previous name.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:41, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, note that the part of the article which is about the Teutonic Knights is only three sentences long.Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:02, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Much of history is lacking
Just by inspecting the dates of the events given in the current version, the region's history between 1200 and 1900 seems underrepresented. In particular, the region's German history should be treated in a neutral manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stan Tincon (talk • contribs) 15:11, 2 April 2018 (UTC)