Talk:Cheadle Hulme/Archive 1

Shopping Area
The article presently claims that Cheadle Hulme is notable for its small shopping area. Does this mean that it is notable for the fact the shopping area is exceptionally small :-) ? Or is the shopping area notable for some other reason? The fact it has a shopping area in itself doesn't seem particularly noteworthy! Best wishes, Cambyses 11:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The sentence does go on to say that the shopping area and the viaduct are on the motif, which makes it noteworthy, however we could remove the word small. Could anyone provide a photo of the motif? -- Olive Oil [[Image:Olive fruit on the branch (2007).jpg|40px|]] 06:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Schools
I've put the schools into a table by category - I'm not sure if it looks good, any comments? -- Alex  talk here 09:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks quite good, but it does leave quite a bit of white space, might work better in rows, or sub sections. -- Olive Oil 15:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've rearranged by category - still a lot of white space though... -- Alex  talk here 23:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That looks a lot better now -- Alex  talk here 11:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Murders
Not a very cheerful subject but I can remember a few in the area.

Arshad Family
I cannot find any articles on wikipedia on last years awful murder of the Arshad family in Cheadle Hulme. Alex 10:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe one could be made on the father. He seems notable enough, particularly if he's convicted.  Majorly  (o rly?) 10:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Donald Neilson
Donald Neilson, the Black Panther, stole firearms in Cheald Hulme. I think this was from the gunshop at the far end of Station Road near the old police station.Alex 10:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Murder near the Seven Arches
There was another serious murder in the 90s I think near by the Seven Arches.--Alex 10:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

German Bomber Pilot
A German bomber was shot down in Bramhall in the second world war. The German aviator was held at Cheadle Hulme police station. Need reference, interesting fact.Alex 10:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Newspapers
Neither of those newspapers are really specific to Cheadle Hulme - one is for Macc, and the other is for Stocky. You could just as well write about The Times and The Guardian on the Cheadle Hulme page. Chris Martin (talk) 16:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Prehistory?
The article doesn't mention whether there's any evidence of human activity in Cheadle Hulme before the Roman period; Pastscape.org.uk also draws a blank and it usually notes finds such as flint arrowheads, although it may not be comprehensive. Does the Squire book (what looks like the best bet for this kind of information) mention whether there have been any prehistoric finds from Cheadle Hulme? If not, it should be made clear that the Roman activity is not just the first evidence of "civilised" (a loaded term) to occupy the area, but the first evidence of any human activity in the area. Nev1 (talk) 13:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, if the Squire book draws a blank, Arrowsmith's Stockport: A History will be worth checking out; I think it covers the entire borough of Stockport rather than the settlement, so should have some useful stuff for the article in general. Nev1 (talk) 14:23, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * A lot of the Squire book is a complete word for word copy (or thereabouts) of the Lee book. The Lee book mentions an "old stone cross, set up originally by some Celt or Saxon..." but the Squire book refers to it as a Saxon cross, without mentioning Celts. The book you mention looks interesting, I'll have to check it out.  Majorly  talk  14:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well the Saxons in England were post-Roman, but Celtic is a vague term. If it's a cross, it's most likely to be post-Roman and have Christian connections. I'm not convinced about Manchester-2002's claim that Cheadle Hulme effectively means "wood wood"; when reading around Timperley in Trafford, the -leah suffix was given as the Old English for "a clearing". A previous discussion on WT:GM (I'll try to find it) pointed out that the site unfortunately contains a lot of inaccuracies and should be phased out wherever possible. The Arrowsmith should help replacing Manchester-2002. Nev1 (talk) 14:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "A clearing" sounds more familiar, from when I researched this area a few years ago.  Majorly  talk  14:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's the discussion. Nev1 (talk) 15:02, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Railways
The third paragraph of the economy section might belong better in the transport section (minus the last sentence). I think the last sentence of the paragraph should be left behind as a summery, with a little change so it reads "The arrival of the railway in the 1840s brought new employment opportunities in towns such as Stockport and Manchester that had not been possible before". Nev1 (talk) 18:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea, done this.  Majorly  talk  18:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Towards FA
I think that this article has all the material needed to meet the FA criteria's "comprehensive" criterion, and is pretty close to meeting all the others as well, but I think it would struggle with the infamous 1a—"its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard", which is a hard one to meet.

My overwhelming impression is that it suffers from the same problem that dogged the Sale article through six FACs, too much disconnected detail. I think, if anything, some material needs to be removed rather than anything added. I think the first paragraph of the Transport section is a good example. It may be, for example, that the information about the smithy—"The first cars appeared in Cheadle Hulme in the early 1900s, but until the 1920s, horse-drawn vehicles were the main form of transport. Horses were shoed in a smithy in the Smithy Green area"—can be justified, but it just seems tagged on, unintegrated. Similarly "Ravenoak Road was Pump Lane, named after Pump House"; the narrative is disjointed.

I'll be interested to see what Nev1's view is, but I hope my few comments are taken in the spirit in which they're offered, and I'll be happy to help where I can. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Nev1

 * History
 * A quote from Cheadle's Domesday entry is used ("a wood three leagues [about 9 miles] long and half as broad and a Hayes and an area of Hawkes and one acre of meadow") but I don't think it's clear what is meant by "a Hayes and an area of Hawkes". The area of hawkes sounds pretty straight forward, but I'd like some confirmation, but the Hayes has me stumped. If Squire doesn't give an explanation, it might be worth trimming the quote, I think removing the bit after "half as broad". I also added a conversion for what a league is as it's an archaic term, but it is only rough (not sure if it should be in kilometres or miles, or both using the undefined undefined template).
 * Trimmed this as suggested.  Majorly  talk  14:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "which was now worth £30 per annum": does that mean the manor produced profits of £30 per year or is it just the income?
 * Sorry, I don't know.  Majorly  talk  14:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "The estate was reunified on the death of the last of the Vernons": this is the first time the Vernon family has been mentioned, I think that either a note needs to be added as to when they gained ownership of the manor or to simplify things you could rephrase it not mention them.
 * I have hopefully clarified this.  Majorly  talk  14:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Presumably the Vernons were succeeded by the de Bagulegys? There's still a bit of a jump from the Vernons to the de Bagulegs. Nev1 (talk) 17:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * They were yes, but it's not a big jump: Clemence, Isabel's mother inherited the estate, as mentioned previously, and the Vernons took part of it. Later, the Baguleghs took it back. There's no mention of who held the estate at that point, though I'd guess it was probably one of the John Savages. Trouble is, no dates have been provided for this information.  Majorly  talk  14:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I've struck this point. Nev1 (talk) 15:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "The only daughter of Clemence and William de Bagulegh, Isabel de Bagulegh succeeded her parents": presumably she succeeded them as owner of the manor, but this does need to be stated.
 * Clarified this.  Majorly  talk  14:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It's tempting to add a sentence on the Manchester Blitz when WWII is mentioned to give the relative peacefulness of Cheadle Hulme some context, but I'm not sure. As Cheadle Hulme is fairly close to Manchester, did it suffer any accidental bombing? I know Sale did, so I thought it might have happened here.
 * All that Squire says on this (from memory) is that Cheadle Hulme escaped being badly damaged. Whether this was meaning any damage at all, or just a little damage, is unclear.  Majorly  talk  13:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, probably not worth going into any more detail then. Nev1 (talk) 17:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Governance
 * It's not important to this article, but do you know much about the Hundred of Stockport? Although it's supposed to be in Cheshire, it's missing from Hundreds of Cheshire.
 * No, I know nothing about that.  Majorly  talk  13:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it would be worth mentioning the number of Conservative and Labour councillors that represent the town on the borough council. It could be tagged onto the last paragraph and would make it look a bit more substantial.
 * Done.  Majorly  talk  14:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Demography
 * Vision of Britain should have some figures for the social class of Cheadle and Gatley, with the caveat that it's not for Cheadle Hulme specifically we should be able to add a sentence or two on the changing social structure of the town. I'll try to do that myself.


 * Economy
 * "Silk-weaving remained commonplace until the early-20th century": I presume it eventually died out when the industry became more centralised and industrialised, but it might be worth explicitly mentioning it.
 * Hopefully clarified.  Majorly  talk  14:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "In the mid-19th century, the Adamson family opened one of the earliest shops in the Smithy Green area": this feels like it's left hanging slightly, is Smithy Green now one of the town's shopping centres?
 * Yes, it is. It's also where the high school and one of the churches are, and it's one of the busiest areas. I don't think it's known as Smithy Green, just as Church Road.  Majorly  talk  13:50, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Some stats such as economic activity (and perhaps industry of employment) could be gleaned from the ward profiles on statistics.gov and I think they'd be worth adding.
 * Done.  Majorly  talk  15:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * General
 * It might be worth expanding the image captions a bit. In Sale's 4th FAC, one of the comments raised was that "the caption doesn't provide any more information".
 * Done, hopefully not over the top though.  Majorly  talk  14:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I've only got half way through the article, I hope to finish going through it tomorrow. I agree with Malleus that in some places there is a little too much information, I know it's a problem I've struggled with as I find myself wanting to give everything some context. I reminded myself that I've got to be realistic, it can't be done, that's why we have wikilinks and if the reader wants to know more they can go down the library and read the local history books in the bibliography. It's difficult to pin it down, but for example "In the mid-19th century, the Adamson family opened one of the earliest shops in the Smithy Green area", what's significant about the Adamson family (ie: I don't think they need to be mentioned). It's little things which can build up. But I am optimistic, the article's in good shape and I think with some fine tuning of the prose it stands a good chance at FAC. Nev1 (talk) 01:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not necessarily the family that are important, but the fact they opened one of the earliest shops is.  Majorly  talk  13:50, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Transport
 * It's difficult to put my finger on, but it just feels like there's a bit much here. For example, do we need to know what the roads used to be called?
 * I've had a go at trimming the first paragraph, and I think it reads a bit better. The bit about horses being shoed still feels a bit disjointed though, as does the bit about the bus. Take a look and see what you think, feel free to revert it. Nev1 (talk) 17:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Only thing I'd disagree with there was the mention of Prince Albert travelling down a road and it being renamed in his honour.  Majorly  talk  17:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well as I said, feel free to revert. I think the bit about the Roman road and the Saxon naming should be mentioned after the first sentence though to get a broadly chronological order (although trying to be chronological in this section is not easy when it makes more sense to deal with each type of transport separately). Nev1 (talk) 17:43, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Notable people
 * Seems fine, I'm not a bit fan as they attract vandalism but I know a lot of articles have them. User:Dweller did once mention that it's difficult to guarantee the comprehensiveness of the these sections in line with the FA criteria, but because there's the precedent of articles such as Oldham with these sections, he wouldn't oppose. Also, it's probably worth copying over some of those references to list of people from Stockport (it's looking a bit thin).
 * Not an issue. Nev1 (talk) 15:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The information in the article seems comprehensive to me, I think the only issue to worry about is criteria 1a. Nev1 (talk) 17:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "Cheadle Hulme is part of the Greater Manchester Urban Area, and is within the Manchester Larger Urban Zone and the Manchester Travel to Work Area." This doesn't feel right at the end of the demography section, perhaps it should be integrated into geography? Also, I don't really see the importance of the travel to work area. Nev1 (talk) 20:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "In 1801 the population was 971 and had risen to 2,319 by 1851." This is illustrated by the table in the demography section, so perhaps isn't necessary in the history section. Nev1 (talk) 20:38, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I only mention that as an example to show the rapid growth in population.  Majorly  talk  21:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, that's a good reason. Nev1 (talk) 21:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

District
In 1974 Cheadle Hulme "became a district in its own right"? What definition of district are we using here? The normal definition, as applied to a metropolitan county, would be metropolitan borough, which Cheadle Hulme certainly did not become. In 1974 it ceased to be part of Cheadle and Gatley Urban District. It became part of the Metropolitan Borough of Stockport. Any attempt to define it as having become a district in that year, whatever meaning is given to district, is opinion and unverifiable. Perhaps it would be better to say simply that it became part of the Metropolitan Borough of Stockport. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Now reads much better.Skinsmoke (talk) 22:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Cheadle Buckeley
Wasn't the parish containing Cheadle itself named Cheadle Bulkeley (not Cheadle Buckeley)? See A Vision of Britain Through Time : Quote from Imperial Gazeteer of England and Wales 1870-72. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, that's a typo, fixed. Thanks,  Majorly  talk  17:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Free images
I have come across several copyright-free images of Cheadle Hulme, available on the Stockport image archive (though not all are copyright-free, several are though). What do you think would be good to illustrate in this article with older images?  Majorly  talk  19:07, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

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