Talk:Cheesecake/Archive 1

Comments
HI caleb kelly likes yu who do you like      as u know i like kadee and pineapples audry likes you

Wikipedia being a worldwide resource, I added metric equivalents for everything. Also corrected the spelling of the Polish cherry cordial--it's Wisniak. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rkocz (talk • contribs) 18:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I edited the paragraph about "cracking" revising the sentences and adding new tips based on an old family prctice of cooling the cheesecake in the oven once it is turned off. I also added common practices for covering the cracks. Steph102 02:34, 28 July 2007 (UTC)Steph102

I deleted the incoherent "Trivia" section about Al Terzi. Said section consisted of one paragraph, of which was the following:

"Cheesecake was actually a Supreme Court case in 1997. Al Terzi's case of the oxymoron cake would not only jump from his state court in Montana, but actually made it to the supreme court. However after the second court session the case was overruled. The term 'cheese cake' was considered to be too oftenly used and had American Heritage to it. Terzi's new name19:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)19:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)19:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)19:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)19:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)19:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)19:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)19:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)74.93.226.77 (talk) 19:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)qowejewurhiweukiwhfnehfn had he won the case was to call it 'Cream Cheese Pie' and/or 'Tart Cheese Pie.' Terzi has yet to appeal his case to court again."

That paragraph doesn't make coherent sense. I did a Google search on *cheesecake AND "Al Terzi"*, and on *"Al Terzi" AND "Supreme Court" AND cheesecake*, to see if I could find the details which this paragraph is referring to, in order to get more information so as to be able to clarify the text and make it coherent, but all I could find was a link back to the Wikipedia cheesecake article, a bunch of irrelevant cheesecake recipes at http://www.wfsb.com, and a small number of links with more irrelevant data. I could find nothing about Al Terzi and a Supreme Court case dealing with cheesecake. 209.208.77.152 08:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

--Thephotoman 03:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)Is cheesecake a cake, tart, pastry or pie? I would argue that it is a cake, as it has the general properties of a cake. It is also classified as a cake in the Fanny Farmer cookbook (by Marrion Cunningham), which is a classic.


 * I would say that a cheesecake is a cake, simply by its name. But it is difficult to try to classify recipes such as these into distinct groups. - Mark 01:33, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * It actually is closer to resembling a custard pie, I think.

--24.0.39.17 20:44, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, to quote from our own cake article:
 * A cake is a form of baked food, usually sweet. Cakes normally combine some kind of flour...

A cheesecake isn't baked, and it doesn't contain flour. So yes, it's called a cake, but I think that's a bit of a misnomer. If there's serious disagreement over this, perhaps it would be best to simply call it a "dessert". --Camembert


 * A cheesecake is cooked in an oven, is'nt this what baked means?


 * Not all cheesecakes are baked in an oven. The kind I am familiar with is not. --Camembert 01:34, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Haha I can't see an edit war over cheesecake. :-D - Mark 01:36, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree with Cam. "Dessert" is best.  --Merovingian &#8597; Talk 01:37, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)


 * I concur on dessert, but would like to assert that [1] some cheesecakes contain at least a nominal amount of flour, and [2] few cakes have piecrusts. - Nunh-huh 01:40, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * And now I'll add the somewhat pointless observation that Boston Cream Pie is a cake... -- Nunh-huh 01:38, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the difficulty arose because Camembert isn't familiar with the heavy cake-like baked cheesecakes made in Chicago and New York. It is certainly hard to consider the light (runny) uncooked cheesecakes as "cakes". So dessert best includes both kinds. Rmhermen 17:04, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)


 * (Bit late) - You're right, I'm not familiar with those kinds of cheesecake (I'm British, which might explain it). "Dessert" seems OK for most people, so that's OK. --Camembert 16:29, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * This is a cake in popular nomenclature because of the constant use of the term and is in fact more like an egg custard. Other languages do not call it a cheese"cake" per se.  --Rakista 01:18, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

personally i call it cheesecake pie

Cake pie? What is this, the stone ages? Jesus. I've heard stupid names for cheesecake in the past, but this one takes the cake pie!

New Yorkers don't claim paternity over cheesecake, merely that the best cheesecake, both Italian or Jewish, are made here. That Roman cookbook is by Apicius. A Roman cheesecake recipe? Well, some read a hamburger recipe into Apicius too... Wetman 02:03, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This page has nothing to do with beefcake. The fact that beefcake is a word play on 'cheesecake' does not make it relevant to this article. - James Foster 02:25, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Pinup pictures
It is a fact that for many decades, pinup pictures of "scantily clad" females, to use the hackneyed phrase, have been called "cheesecake". History of Pinup Cheesecake. By analogy, pictures of male "hunks" displaying a similar amount of semi-nudity or implied nudity are "beefcake". YTHFG%^EDTRFGH$ECTRFYGH^%EDYFGT^&RYTFYGH&DTFG Since the page has only one word in the title, it will need to either contain disambiguation text or become a disambiguation page that directs to Cheesecake (dessert) and Cheesecake (pinups). Sorry, User talk:James Foster, but that is the only approach that makes sense. Hu 03:51, 2004 Nov 21 (UTC)

I'll move the page and add a disambiguation page. Thanks! James Foster 07:29, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Disambiguation
Sorry, this page should be moved back to Cheesecake with a link at the top to Cheesecake (disambiguation) to handle the relation to Cheesecake (pin-up). The dessert usage is far more prevalent. -- Solipsist 05:48, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Agree. No objection. Cheesecake refering to pin-up girls, is better suited for Wiktionary.  Sure, it's a slang term, and it redirects to an article entitled "Pin-up girl" but it's not an encyclopedia article. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 17:55, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

History
I just removed the following:


 * The origins of cheesecake goes back to ancient Greece, where it was served to athletes during the first Olympic Games in 776 BC. The Romans spread cheesecake from Greece to across Europe. Centuries later cheesecake appeared in America, due to recipes brought over by immigrants.

This is complete bs. It was copied over word for word from an article at about.com. If anyone wants to give a valid reference on the history of cheesecake, go right ahead.

In the US, the term "cheesecake" does not mean "a cake made out of cheese"; it's a specific baked dessert made out of cream (or similar) cheese. If there is some other international meaning of the word, feel free to add it, but be sure to make the distinction. To say "the Greeks invented cheesecake" is nonsense to the American reader, whereas "the Greeks were the first to make desserts out of cheese" isn't. --Sean Kelly 19:24, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * The historical description is incomplete, here a bad translation of parts of the german Wikipedia article:
 * Für das Mittelalter fehlen entsprechende Belege. Das älteste moderne Käsekuchenrezept stammt aus dem Kochbuch Le Viandier des französischen Kochs Taillevent Ende des 14. Jahrhunderts. Das älteste deutschsprachige Rezept für diesen Kuchen enthält das Kochbuch von Anna Wecker aus dem Jahr 1598. Als Zutaten gibt sie neben Quark Eier, Zucker, Butter und Zimt an.
 * About the middle age there are no sources of recipes left. The oldest modern recipe is included in the cookbook Le Viandier of the french cook Guillaume Tirel at the end of the 14th century. The oldest german recipe of cheescake is included in the cookbook from Anna Wecker from the year 1598. As ingriedents she mentioned quark, eggs, sugar, butter and cinnamon.
 * I think this informations are worth to mention in the history section, perhaps some native speaker could rewrite it in a proper way and insert it in the article. Thank you very much. --Wohingenau (talk) 13:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Famous places to get cheesecake
Someone (presumably from Boston) took out the reference to Junior's in Brooklyn and replaced it with Boston. As far as I know, Junior's is a more well known place to get cheesecake than the entire city of Boston. If you want to add another famous source of cheesecake, go right ahead. But linking to Junior's is not spam; just ask any New Yorker. &mdash;Sean &kappa;. + 03:48, 4 August 2005 (UTC) please someone place correct information it would help alot to know what is not bs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.50.19.150 (talk) 15:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that. Two different incidents can form a conspiracy.  I removed the reference to Junior's because the user who originally added it had worded it as spam, and was also the creator of the Junior's article itself.  Another person vouching for it is more than enough.  Then someone else came along and added Boston. (Who's ever heard of Boston-style cheesecake? Google hasn't.) I have got to register one of these days. 24.4.199.243 00:07, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

As a pastry chef
I added the types of Cheesecakes that I have baked or have direct knowledge of and a short history of each. I also changed "American-style" cheesecakes to "New York-style" cheesecakes in the comment about Junior's as it does not make sense in context of the new delineation I have offered.--Rakista 19:53, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I am really confused
It said this page was going to have evidence about why I was preminantly blocked from editing, but it's cheesecake instead, why was I blocked because of cheesecake? Please tell me--Archive13 23:26, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The above message relates to a misunderstanding caused by a vandal. See here for more information. Thanks. --Canderson7 00:08, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Cheesecake funny on LiveJournal
According to dee_emm of LiveJournal, there was a resturaunt that had the Chinese for "cheesecake" translated as Wikipedia.

Thought y'all ought to know. --Thephotoman 03:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

the POV of a French
le cheesecake c'est le fromage et le dessert à la fois. --Jerome Potts 04:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Photos
http://www.vinoviosgourmetcheesecakes.com/750_500_csupload_55799810.jpg?u=721814833 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vinovio (talk • contribs) 01:57, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

A better photo of a sliced through cheesecake is needed, if anyone has one to submit please do so.

Thank-you.

I also think there should be more pictures for reference. Thank You. http://www.vinoviosgourmetcheesecakes.com/Cake-Eater-.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vinovio (talk • contribs) 01:22, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism
There seems to be a lot of vandalism recently and subsequently a lot of reverting. Something should be done about the perpetrator. 165.230.46.142 20:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. Just today I deleted this: "It a Pie deal with it Chad Pressly Roberts." --205.201.141.146 20:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * as a policy, you shouldn't repeat (even in talk) vandalism; it's best to simply reference it by the vandal or the date. -Superbeecat 18:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Fried Cheesecake
Anythoughts on adding Fried Cheesecake? , though, I cannot find a picture at the moment. Thanks, CarpD 4/25/07.

Pie
Not to bring up an old battle, but it is absolutely well established that, culinarily speaking, cheesecake is a (custard) pie. It is a baked filled crust as opposed to a chemically risen flour-based desert. When cookbooks list cheesecake under the cake section, it's for the sake of laypersons who, understandably, are confused due to the name. This is the same case as boston cream pie, which is a cake. -Superbeecat 18:49, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, and the article so indicated as of my June 25 edit, which was messed-up by the anonymous edit of June 27; I've now made the correction again, hopefully this time it will stick. Haim Berman 09:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope, it didn't. Today another anonymous edit changed it to "a cake and not a pie."  Not having any sources to check the claim against, I've just removed the statement (of whether it's a cake or a pie) altogether.  Citing some sources for this, would put the issue to rest. -- Why Not A Duck 00:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The source cited is not a credible source, so please do some research before making claims as facts. Not all cheesecakes fit the description you have applied... Kylesandell 06:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Cheesecake is not custard pie - it is a type of torte. A torte is a rich cake made with many eggs and often without flour, and will often be layered or encrusted with crumbs of one sort or another, or nuts.  Cheesecake is properly made in a springform pan, and if baked properly will not crack, and a water bath should not be necessary.  If what you think of as cheesecake is more like a custard pie, then it's not cheesecake.  The definition of "cake" is not "a chemically  risen flour-based dessert."  That's only one type of cake.  A torte is not a pie. The link to the opinion page offered as "proof" that cheesecake is a type of custard pie should be removed, or a better choice should be made. Whothehey 04:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

While not all modern definitions of cake specify that it must contain flour, all of them indicate that flour is a persistent ingredient (too many references to cite, but compare 5 or more dictionaries). Looking at the etymology of the word cake, it is derived from Sumerian era (or ironically PIE, if you subscribe to that linguistic theory) usage, which was specifically a flour cake akin to bread, not a dessert. There is no reference nor support for the idea that cheesecake is a type of torte. Tortes are traditionally made with flour (although there are plenty of recipes without flour). Citing that ‘proper’ cheesecake is made with flour and/or a springform pan is disingenuous at best, since these are American and specifically New York modifications to an existing recipe that does not require either.

Looking at the origins of the word pie, we find an original M.L. meaning of enclosing in pastry. Some more modern definitions (entry 2.2) talk about a filling in a pastry shell. This could be easily applied to the crust that is common (but not universal) to cheesecake. This crust then appears to me to be the dividing line between cakes (including tortes) which have none and pies. Does anyone have a reference to cakes that have a crust? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.30.223.135 (talk) 07:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey guys, I managed to find the following input on this issue buried within the depths of the internet. Unfortunately it doesn't have any reliable source backing it up, but maybe this might lead us somewhere productive?

What separates cake from pie is not how it is presented, but how it is prepared. And, frankly, cheesecake is prepared like a cake. You combined sweeteners with a binding agent (eggs), a liquid (cream), and a fat (butter). A pie is something filled with a base ingredient (or more), though often sweetened and sometimes flavored with spices, but that base is not usually mixed with anything except in the case of custards. Typically pies do not require any sort of binding agent, and many pies don't require any sort of blending.

You cannot easily make a cheesecake in the way you'd make a pie. It will not be much like cheesecake at all once you start taking away the things that make it a cake (eggs, butter, etc.), and doing so gives you a result that is noticably different than a traditional cheesecake. 71.197.214.141 (talk) 20:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * A cheesecake is VERY clearly a custard pie, as it is a custard base, baked in a crust. See Good Eats Episode: "The trouble with cheesecake" [|Here] for a transcript and the science behind it. The above editor misunderstands culinary terminology (cream is a liquid, but butter is a fat?). Cheesecake is prepared NOTHING like a cake, it is prepared like a custard, which, again, it is. Custards are not cakes. Putting custard into a crust = custard pie. It's very simple. - super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat 05:35, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Cake
There is no solid evidence or reliable sources that state that cheesecake is a a pie. Therefore, it is a cake, hence the name. Karekare1 (talk) 16:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we need sources.

However, the lack of sources that it is a pie, does not mean that it is a cake. Perhaps we can have the compromise text I have inserted until there is an authoritative source? Alice.S 16:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Here: http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/Season5/Cheesecake/CheesecakeTranscript.htm - super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat 05:36, 27 June 2009 (UTC) Here: http://www.instructables.com/id/Cheesecake/ - super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat 05:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC) Here: http://everything2.com/title/Cheesecake%2520is%2520pie etc...

External links to recipes
WP:EL states, right at the top: "Wikipedia articles should include links to Web pages outside Wikipedia if they are relevant. Such pages could contain... information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail ... or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to their reliability."

Because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia written for the benefit of its readers, but Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, it is inappropriate to include Cheesecake recipes in the main article.

Clearly it is useful to our readers if we could have one great external link to a compendium of cheesecake recipes.

Please would editors] not be WP:POINTy until we find that great link and help preserve the existing (insufficient) links until that happens.

The fundamental encapsulation of our external links policy is that adding external links can be helpful to everyone, but they should be restricted to those that are most meritable, accessible and relevant to the article.

A recipe is a recipe (whether it is on a blog or not) and I do not believe that 4 links is excessive (in the absence of that "one great external link to a compendium").  A l i c e  ✉ 18:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ann Arbor cheesecake
Archiving "Ann Arbor style cheesecake" subsection -- 68 hits on google, most referring to the silliness of the style. It also sounds the same as cheesecakes made elsewhere. Janet13 (talk) 23:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ann Arbor-style cheesecake Old World Bakery in Ann Arbor, Michigan, features a graham cracker crust which covers both the bottom and the 8 cm (3 inch) high side of the cheesecake. It is also lighter and creamier in texture than other cheesecakes because of a combined cream cheese and sour cream base. Each cheesecake weighs an average of 2 to 3 kg (4-5 1/2 pounds) depending upon the flavour. It is also common to add liquor flavourings such as Bailey's Irish Cream, Amaretto, Raspberry Chambord, Kahlua, Wisniak cherry cordial, and Vandermint.


 * To the person who restored the section on A2 style: The only information I can find on this "style" is either derived from WP (e.g. mirrors) or comments about how silly/pretentious it is to describe a local product as "the style". If there are reliable sources that establish the existence of it as a distinct style, then please add those too.  I'm removing this again in the meantime. --Jaeger5432 | Talk 15:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Popular Culture
There seems to be some disagreement as to whether National Cheesecake Day (30 July) belongs in this article. I found a lot of web sources for its (unofficial) existence. I guess I could be persuaded that it is not really germane, but it seems at least as relevant as cheesecake consumption in sitcoms. Should we get rid of the entire section? Peter Chastain (talk) 23:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Overgeneralisations
I think there is a little tunnel vision here about what constitutes a cheesecake. The very first sentence reads:


 * Cheesecake is a dessert formed of a topping made with soft, fresh cheese upon a base made from biscuit, pastry or sponge.

This is certainly the case for most cheesecakes it is not a universal truth. Consider this cake: http://www.open2.net/download/everwonderedfood/cheesecake.pdf that is a single homogeneous layer not separated into topping and base. That is a true cheesecake that follows a regular cake recipe only with cheese (ricotta in this case) substituting for part of the flour. CrispMuncher (talk) 18:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't even make sense
Despite their name, cheesecakes are technically cakes;

Before the article was protected this should have been changed back to pies.

Styles section
What happened to the Styles section? It was there in November, removed for no apparent reason and since then the article seems to lean on the 'baked only' side of the food. Is it worth putting back? Nanonic (talk) 02:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course it is. It was removed by a vandal and replaced with vandalism, then someone simply removed the vandalism instead of reverting. --70.246.77.181 (talk) 18:51, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Lindy's
Is there a reference for []? Gerardw (talk) 18:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I am working on the Lindy's article now and you shall see them appear shortly. "Mindy's" in Guys and Dolls is based on Lindy's In NYC, which author Damon Runyon wrote about frequently.  Lindy's in fact is probably one of the most famous cheesecakes places in American history, based on my research so far.--Neighborhoodpalmreader (talk) 18:28, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry to be inpatient -- this article just gets lots of "additions" . There's a least a passing reference here [] Gerardw (talk) 18:38, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem, I realize now that when you touch upon a "bigger" article, it gets (and should get) quick scrutiny. I have added a very good 1977 NYTimes cite, which quotes the co-author of guys and dolls for this point.  There are so many refernces to Lindy's cheesecake out there that it probably merits a more comprehensive mention in this article, but I'll source it before adding further text.--Neighborhoodpalmreader (talk) 18:44, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

for the section where they talk about the different styles of cheese cake in north america, they don't mention california style cheese cake which is baked cheese cake with a thin layer of sour cream frosting. is it not popular enough to mention? i thought that it was one of the main varieties. let me look for some sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.59.140.196 (talk) 06:14, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

and that was my first time ever discussing an article, so i'm sorry this is attatched to the lindy's part. i was also wondering if anyone could say whether or not all the styles of the different countires are baked or unbaked? what they are topped with is not really my main interest in a style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.59.140.196 (talk) 06:38, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Good article
Does anyone else think this is almost at good article standards? Maybe if a few more citations were added it would be enough. InverseHypercube (talk) 06:55, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Lack of good pictures
none of the pictures look particularly appetizing, we really need some pictures of premium cheesecake. (like from the cheesecake factory) I've got a few of a white chocolate raspberry truffle cheesecake if anyone wants to add some. (not sure what the policy is on that, or how to go about doing so)96.232.200.150 (talk) 20:21, 12 July 2012 (UTC)