Talk:Cheetah Mobile

This is not a company for non-notable articles for advertisements
When you get the created page so you can see the advertisement will be considered so the speedily deletion task is required of WP:AFD's reporter of wikipedia after a tag of this article. Please comment. Thank you. Bryancyriel (talk) 12:55, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

A lot of this page reads as an advertisement. Need help fixing.
I am very new to Wikipedia & only removed one paragraph that was inappropriate. A LOT of this article lacks neutrality & reads more like an advertisement for their products than anything.

Any help cleaning it up would be appreciated. JB3783 (talk) 18:49, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Whatcall
Whatscall, a laissé tombé ses utilisateurs, plusieurs milliers ont perdu des points importants pour passer des appels téléphoniques sans frais, whatscall qui apparaît a cheetah mobile a fermé sans avis et délais sans en aviser ses utilisateurs Boboy1059 (talk) 13:48, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I can read some French, thus I can translate this decently well. This comment is basically an attack on the company, which violates WP:NPV. I Need Support  :3 14:00, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Google Translate translates it as Whatscall, has failed its users, several thousand have lost important points to make telephone calls toll free, whatscall which appears on cheetah mobile has closed without notice and delays without notifying its users. Polygnotus (talk) 23:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Cheetah Security Browser which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 02:17, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

User numbers
Since Cheetah Mobile has faced allegations of fabricating its traffic and revenue numbers and buying user reviews. according to the Verge I removed the claim of an amount of active users ", it has more than 634 million monthly active users" sourced to a listicle. Sadly this is accepted practice in the app market. Polygnotus (talk) 23:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Who owns what
It would be nice to have some sources. For example, this confirms that Kingsoft owns Cheetah Mobile and this confirms that Cheetah Mobile owns OrionStar. Polygnotus (talk) 23:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This may be a bit outdated: It has two subsidiaries including Seasun and Kingsoft Office. Polygnotus (talk) 23:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * OrionStar have always been owned by Cheetah Mobile, apparently. I don’t know why they announced an acquisition in 2023. Mateus2906 (talk) 23:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You probably know these things but on Wikipedia we really need sources. Life of a Wikipedian is hard! Polygnotus (talk) 23:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Both of those sources can definitely be used right now. Regarding Kika Tech, there’s a little part on an article saying that Kika Tech is Cheetah Mobile’s subsidiary, but the rest is talking about ad fraud. For Cloudminos, we only have Cheetah Mobile’s website as proof, and unfortunately that would be promoting their website. Mateus2906 (talk) 23:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hm, this appears to be more up to date than the Kingsoft site; though they call em "business segments" and not subsidiaries. Polygnotus (talk) 23:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yep, they call them business segments, but those business segments are actually companies they own Mateus2906 (talk) 23:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have any reliable sources for that? Polygnotus (talk) 09:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Basically, those 4 names are some of their subsidiaries. While OrionStar, Cloudminos, and Minimax (Cheetah Games) are subsidiaries, Cheetah’s international advertising business and the mobile apps are Cheetah Mobile itself. Mateus2906 (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have any reliable sources for that? Polygnotus (talk) 09:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * By the way, their site in English version have released just today, since they were doing some improvements on it to include the major updates their Chinese version received. Mateus2906 (talk) 00:00, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Hm, the report states: CMCM recently invested $40m into OrionStar, a robotics company owned by CMCM’s CEO. The transaction price implies a $135m post-money valuation for a company that has only existed for ~8 months, and that was originally intended to be a CMCM subsidiary, based on our research. Polygnotus (talk) 08:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * https://i.imgur.com/8gSxgAT.png Interesting. Polygnotus (talk) 08:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I may find some sources that proves it. I’ll keep you updated of what I found of sources :) Mateus2906 (talk) 09:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Chinese is a rather difficult language for foreigners. Polygnotus (talk) 09:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Here we have Cheetah Mobile’s history. Go to June 2016, and there we have a text saying that they established OrionStar, meaning OrionStar is their subsidiary. Here (Brazilian Portuguese) we have proof of Kika Tech being Cheetah Mobile’s subsidiary with a text saying so and both of them answering to their ad fraud accusations. Finally, here we have a text saying Minimax is the developer for Rolling Sky. As you might know, Rolling Sky is a Cheetah Mobile product. Regarding Cloudminos, currently the most accurate source is this. Mateus2906 (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * 1) says: In September 2016, Fu Sheng founded OrionStar. This does not necessarily mean that Orionstar is their subsidiary, right? It also says Cheetah Mobile launched the "All in AI" initiative and established OrionStar Again, this does not necessarily mean that it is a subsidiary, right? It sure seems like Fu Sheng founded Orionstar, and CM did not establish Orionstar (despite their claim). Anyway, I found a better source, that does specify that Orionstar is a subsidiary and does confirm that the claim that CM established Orionstar is false.
 * It is possible that one company establishes another company with neither being a subsidiary of the other.
 * 2) Does not appear to be a reliable source (judging by Google Translate)
 * 3) That text was written by you. See WP:USERGENERATED and WP:FANDOM.
 * 4) Is where they talk about "business segments", but don't specify how that is structured (e.g. as a wholly-owned subsidiary or something else). Polygnotus (talk) 14:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3) It was just edited by me. The other revision was something similar, you can check page history. Mateus2906 (talk) 15:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikis, blogs, forum posts, and other forms of user generated or self published content should not be used as sources. MrOllie (talk) 15:36, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Now that I thought of it, that still doesn’t prove Minimax is owned by Cheetah Mobile. The issue is finding a source that confirms the ownership Mateus2906 (talk) 15:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * But I know that Minimax is officially owned by Cheetah Mateus2906 (talk) 15:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Now I reviewed their site, and Cloudminos is just a product. Editing now. Mateus2906 (talk) 15:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) What’s the source?
 * 2) Okay, I will find something else more reliable that says Kika Tech is CM’s subsidiary Mateus2906 (talk) 15:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Polygnotus (talk) 16:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You already put the source into the page, right? Mateus2906 (talk) 16:36, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yep. I am still looking for information on Kika Tech and Minimax. Polygnotus (talk) 16:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Searching for “Cheetah Games” instead of “Minimax” should be easier. It’s the same company, it just got a rename due to the 2 years of no updates Mateus2906 (talk) 16:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I found one for Kika Tech. There is a company called Cheetah Games but I think it is unrelated. Its CEO is Michal Rahamim Maor and it has a co-founder called Shay Hugi. They also make mobile games but they are located in Israel. Polygnotus (talk) 16:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That is unrelated, surely. Cheetah Mobile is on China, not on Israel. Also, you found a source for Kika Tech? That’s great! Mateus2906 (talk) 16:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Omg there are so many replies that soon one letter will take one line LOL Mateus2906 (talk) 16:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * test Mateus2906 (talk) 17:00, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a trick, a template called od meaning outdent to jump back to the left. Polygnotus (talk) 16:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Google Translate translates the first sentence of https://www.cheetahgames.com/about as "Cheetah Games is the game publishing department of Cheetah Mobile and was officially established in 2014." I have not been able to find evidence that it is a subsidiary. The article Kingsoft states Kingsoft operates four subsidiaries: Seasun for video game development Polygnotus (talk) 17:00, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * So subsidiary is different than what Cheetah Games is? Well, yea. Imagine if I had like 100 departments and called them “subsidiaries” XD. But the point is that after they renamed it to “Minimax”, the Mobile games developer got its own Headquarters. Mateus2906 (talk) 17:04, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think so, yeah. I'll remove it from the list of subsidiaries for now but we can always add it back if we find a good source. I think Minimax was perhaps also called Cheetah Mobile Play at some point. Polygnotus (talk) 17:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Apparently Cheetah Mobile Play is an even older name for Cheetah Games Mateus2906 (talk) 17:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Evidence of them having headquarters is on a BiliBili video. That probably doesn’t count as a source Mateus2906 (talk) 17:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah people would probably call that original research. Polygnotus (talk) 17:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Should I put in the history that some non-fraudulent apps owned by Cheetah Mobile (examples: LiveMe and PhotoGrid, but products can’t be on the page) are available on Google Play under developer accounts with the app’s name? (Example: LiveMe is under KS Mobile, a Cheetah Mobile account, on iOS. While it’s owned by “LiveMe+” on Google Play.) Mateus2906 (talk) 17:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * They seem to have a lot of apps (e.g. this page talks about 242 different apps) so I am not so sure which if any are worth mentioning and in what level of detail. Lemme think about this for a bit. Polygnotus (talk) 17:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Most notable ones are LiveMe, PhotoGrid, QuickPic Gallery… Mateus2906 (talk) 18:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Completed list of notable ones: LiveMe, PhotoGrid, QuickPic Gallery, 2Face and Kika Tech’s apps. Some of those developer accounts also created news apps, possibly meaning new CM products. Note: despite those apps being published by developers with the app’s name, those apps continues being developed by Cheetah Mobile accounts on iOS, meaning that Cheetah Mobile has ownership over those apps. Mateus2906 (talk) 18:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * On Wikipedia, the word notable has a different meaning, see WP:NOTABLE. Polygnotus (talk) 18:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh. I meant “worth mentioning”. Mateus2906 (talk) 19:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, do not start making a list of these. Per WP:NOT such product lists are off-mission for an encyclopedia. MrOllie (talk) 19:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright. So we just mention that a few apps are back, without mentioning which ones? Mateus2906 (talk) 20:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Only if reliable secondary sources (major newspapers, for example) have commented on it.
 * Wikipedia editors cannot conduct WP:OR to tie these accounts together. They could be knock-off copies being posted fraudulently for all we know. MrOllie (talk) 20:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Decent chance that only God knows who is a subsidiary of what and who (co-)founded what at this point. While this site claims that KS Mobile is a subsidiary of Cheetah Mobile, this site says KS Mobile is an old name and so does this one. So yeah, its possibly them, but we need sources for everything we write. Polygnotus (talk) 21:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s because KS Mobile IS an old name for Cheetah Mobile. It was called like that before 2015. When you put Clean Master on way back machine, you can see the name evolution. In iOS, Cheetah Mobile kept using the name for publishing LiveMe and CM Browser Mobile. Mateus2906 (talk) 21:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

SEC filing
I checked the latest filing with the SEC (2024-04-18) and according to exhibit 8.1 they got 20 subsidiaries:

Cheetah Technology Corporation Limited Beijing Kingsoft Internet Security Software Co., Ltd. Conew Network Technology (Beijing) Co., Ltd. Hongkong Zoom Interactive Network Marketing Technology Limited Cheetah Information Technology Company Limited Cheetah Mobile Singapore Pte. Ltd. Multicloud Limited Beijing Kingsoft Cheetah Technology Co., Ltd. Jingdezhen Jibao Information Service Co., Ltd. Japan Kingsoft Inc. Zhuhai Baoqu Technology Co., Ltd. Zhuhai Baobaohong Technology Co., Ltd Zhuhai Baohaowan Technology Co., Ltd. Beijing Orion Star Technology Co., Ltd. Hongkong Cheetah Mobile Technology Limited Conew.com Corporation Cheepop Inc. Cheetah Mobile Seal Inc. Cheetah Mobile Calls Hong Kong Limited Zhuhai Juntian Electronic Technology Co., Ltd.

Infobox company says: If there are more than five subsidiaries and the article body lists them or discusses them, consider linking to that part of the article rather than listing them in the infobox. Listing them all in the infobox seems like overkill. Polygnotus (talk) 17:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * OMG so many subsidiaries. We’re gonna have to create a whole new title on the article for the subsidiaries. When talking about them, we could mention that X subsidiaries has all the same purpose as Cheetah Mobile and Kika Tech + OrionStar are ones that work differently Mateus2906 (talk) 18:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We would need sources in order to write that. Polygnotus (talk) 21:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Prescience Point Research Group
Press reported that Prescience Point Research Group released a report that states that Cheetah mobile is essentially worthless. I should probably dig a bit deeper when I have time. Polygnotus (talk) 23:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Fines
We can use these sources to improve the article: Polygnotus (talk) 09:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * https://www.ft.com/content/95dee8d8-8219-460d-ad7e-f1a36b05ff1b
 * https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/admin/2022/33-11104.pdf

Who founded what
Chen Rui is called the founder of Cheetah Mobile but the source says he was the co-founder. Sheng Fu is also claimed to be the founder of Cheetah mobile. See here. Polygnotus (talk) 22:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Hey, do you know if I can put Cheetah Mobile’s products back, without providing external links or descriptions to those, making them a neutral part too? Mateus2906 (talk) 18:33, 19 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Pretty sure explained that above. Polygnotus (talk) 19:44, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Names
In China they flip the family and first name.


 * 傅盛 is Fu Sheng (Fu being the family name).
 * 陈睿 is Chen Rui (Chen being the family name).
 * 徐鸣 is Xu Ming (Xu being the family name).

The article seems to use a mix. Naming_conventions_(Chinese) says: Unlike with most Western names, Chinese personal names present the surname (either a family name or a clan name) before the given name. It is standard practice to adhere to this convention in English. However, when someone is commonly known by a Chinese name with given–surname order (e.g. Wen Ho Lee), this form should be used, and relevant redirects created from the surname–given ordering. None of these people is commonly known by any name so I think we should follow the Chinese order and make a note that we did that. Polygnotus (talk) 22:00, 16 May 2024 (UTC)