Talk:Chekavar/Archive 1

Editing
I have revised the first paragraph of this article for grammar and style. The other paragraphs seem rather controversial to attempt to edit. Will wait till some sort of a consensus is reached regarding the content before trying again.Trifoliate (talk) 15:44, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Be careful against "VANDALISM"
Dear Vijay,we want to be careful against "Vandalism" from other castes. Before... it was from that "Namboothiri123456789". But now a days it is from some other castes( especially from...in which cast..women feel shame to tell that "the father of her son is a man from their own caste, and which cast woman trying to find out any "English man" or any "Namboothiri" or "Any Other Rich People" to tell that he is the father of her son ). I think.. you can understand what I am telling. And now a days I got a complaint that ,...the "Suresh Varma" delibrately trying his level best to stop others from editing this page. He is a too Jealous Person. And one more complaint I got that, in the "Ehava" page these cast lobby stopped even "Ezhavar-cast-people " from editing the article about their own cast and also from providing & uploading more informations. I have forwarded this complaints to wikipwdia and asked to find out the identity of the administrator. Because, they trying to stop editing in "Ehava" and "Chekavar" articles only. They never taking any step to stop editing in the page of their caste even though they tell always the Vandals attacking them always. You just see their deliberate contradictory habit. "Otherwise, some other ways are also there ,we can find out easily the administrator. I think he also should be "a Jealous"-from the above told cast. Let's Check... Arjun Chekavar (Ezhavar) (talk) 21:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)Arjun Chekavar (Ezhavar)Arjun Chekavar (Ezhavar) (talk)

untitled
I removed this sentence from the last paragraph because I could not make heads or tails of it and it didn't seem vital: "Their forefathers like Kittan Ittirah Chekavar was a legend who has martial moorings which has been descended down to their offsprings." DoorsAjar 00:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

"It is said that the last of the great Chera kings, the Cheraman Perumal himself, was a from this caste. When the king left for a western kingdom, some say for Mecca, he gave his sword to the Chekavas and exhorted them to rule by killing and by death. " I removed teh above sentence because of its historical absurdity and no refrence sited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crayoz (talk • contribs) 16:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Chekavar
In chekavar page under heading LEGENDS people are engaging in self glorification (eg; there are families such as xxxxxxxx whose roots are closely associated with these clans) Let them first understand the meaning of legend first

Another thing there is difference between some one who have just chekavar in name and some one who have blood of chekavan. Chekavars were respected warriors dont try to degrade with irrelevant and degrading writings. Iam deleting irrelevent informations —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.13.230 (talk) 11:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Yep ur right this people dont know the meaning of chekavan and legend they r just trying to glorify their family names like(xxxxxxxxfamily roots) and chekavers r not people who faught against caste opperission.Go through northern ballads and u will find these people were respected warriers. come to Malabar and these people might able to see some chekavar famaly and aristrocratic thiyya families and their traditions —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.119.228 (talk) 07:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * There are lot of factual errors in this 'chekavar' page. Firstly, Mamankam was not practised everywhere in Kerala. It was only in Thirunavayi. It was between valluva konathiri and Zamorin and no chekavar families were part of it. The chaver families who participated in Mamankam were all Nairs. The chekavars are not just Ezhavas as mentioned here. They included mappilas, nairs and other caste also. Chekavar means a martial expert who would fight till death, for kings, lords etc for settling the disputes between them. They are not glorified warriors as depicted in some third rated malayalam movies. They were infact like scape goats who used to kill/get killed for the sake of some nobilitie's disputes and this included some Thiyya families also. Even nairs like thacholi othenan were chekavars. The only difference being the Nairs fought for glory and pride while

the Thiyyas did this for money. However, the 'chekavarship' provided social elevation to certain thiyya families and some of them became very rich due to this.There is no historical evidence or descendants for characters like Aromal chekavar etc who are all some fictitious characters tailor made for movies. The 'chekavar' system was confined to Malabar and there are no 'chakavar' in s.kerala per se though there were martial ezhava families also in s.kerala. Ezhavas were part of the army of small feudal kingdoms everywhere. During Shakthan Tampuran's reign, he recruited many ezhavas into his army due to his rivalry with the Nair feudals (almost similar lines with the induction of Marava army by Marthanda varma due to his rivalry with the ettuveettil pillamar). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.15.16.20 (talk) 09:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Chegos
We use some sources that refer to Chegos rather than Chekavar. How do we know that they're referring to the same community? - Sitush (talk) 07:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There are many Sources clearly refer the relation of chekavars, chegos, selgos etcDaya Anjali (talk / contribs) 03:18, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Chekavar image
There is an image which provides meaning to the word chekavar. Well, is this worth to be part of the article?

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 00:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No. - Sitush (talk) 00:58, 9 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Please explain the reason

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 01:01, 9 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I should not have been so blunt. This is English Wikipedia and long lengths of non-English content, seemingly translated by no-one in particular, are not appropriate. There has in fact been a recent RfC regarding the use of Indic scripts in articles and the outcome of that was that they should not be used. OK, that RfC was not specifically with regard to images but, honestly, what do you really think this image adds to the article? - Sitush (talk) 01:02, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * My Points are 1) The image convey more information than in the article 2) It explains word meaning in english which in think suitable for english wikipedia 3) Added by user who has excellent track record of of providing valid information to wiki.4) Sourced from authentic reference. And i hope the image remains in article since it has been removed witout a valid reasonDaya Anjali (talk / contribs) 01:08, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I also hope as user of Wiki, your objective is not to destroy some valubale information in the iarticle, which i have seen in many your edits. If there is no valid references its fine to get removed.

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 01:12, 9 February 2012 (UTC)


 * What does the image add that cannot be said in text, especially bearing in mind that this is English WP? The guidelines for translation etc do permit user translation but only as a last resort, and in this case I really cannot see any need for it. The etymology etc is already described. I do not question the good faith of the person who constructed the image, merely the necessity of it. - Sitush (talk) 01:44, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It can be added to text but how do add reference to it? Also the image does not require a translation as itself provide it. Hope all users objective to make wp a lib of authentic information. Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 03:15, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * We probably should not add a reference to it because it is a primary source. - Sitush (talk) 09:59, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Thiyyar
The community chekavar shares the same place as Thiyyar as far as its relation with Ezhava is concerned and hence the page must be removed since its creating unnecessary confusion and hence must be deleted or redirected for violating wiki rules and redirected to Ezhava as done by Thiyya page or the moderators must allow separate page for thiyya--Rahulkris999 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:18, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Please provide reliable sources for your claim. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:21, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Thiyya / Chekavar
Chekavar is a subcaste of Thiyya from North Malabar, nothing to do with Ezhava, Please either remove this page or kindly correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irajeevwiki (talk • contribs) 03:57, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Please provide reliable sources for your claim. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:27, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Chekavar are thiyya caste
Chekavars belongs to Thiyya caste in Malabar. "Angam Jayichale Chekavanagoo", a line from Vadakkan Patt which says thiyya who won the 'angam' meaning fight are known as Chekavar. Chon are not Chekavar. They are another caste which existed in Chera rule eg: Pandy Chon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adhithya Kiran Chekavar (talk • contribs) 13:03, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Sourcing
Please note that Edgar Thurston is not considered to be a reliable source. It is in part for this reason that I have reverted some recent edits. The other part of my rationale was even more basic in terms of policy, ie: no source was provided at all. - Sitush (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Thiyya/Ezhava
Despite the many efforts of members of the Thiyya community over many years on Wikipedia, the consensus remains that reliable sources consider the community to be as one with the Ezhava. It has been discussed to death not only the the Ezhava talk page but also at the numerous POV forks created to oppose it (now salted or redirects) and at venues such as WP:DRN, WP:RSN and even via behavioural discussions at WP:ANI.

I realise that some Thiyyas do not like it but they're still not coming up with reliable sources. The latest effort to appear in this article has just been reverted by me. The edit summary referred to this as verification. The problem is two-fold: (a) it is an autobiographical work and thus not reliable; (b) one book does not trump tens or even hundreds of others by respected academics. - Sitush (talk) 04:18, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Chekavar(Chovvan)
Chekavars were not Thiyya or Ezhava. They never did professions like coconut tree climbing and farming in the agricultural lands of wealthy landlords. They were a separate warrior community. I think they are related to Tulu Bunts. Because in Vadakkan Pattukal it is mentioned that Smt.Unniyarcha and her brother learned martial arts in Tulu Nadu.

Chekavars are not at all related to Nairs. Women of Malayala Kshatriya, Samanthan Kshatriya, Kiriyathil Nair and Illathu Nair communities never learned Kalarippayattu. They only did household duties. Men of these communities were well-trained in martial arts and they protected their lands very well. These four communities are matrilineal and patriarchal.

Chekavar community is very different from Nair and Royal Kshatriya. Chekavars encouraged their women to learn martial arts. In Vadakkan Pattukal, some women of Chekavar community are praised for their bravery. Some Tulu Bunt women were also famous for their bravery like Smt.Abbakka Chowta, Smt.Kittur Chellamma, Smt.Keladi Chellamma and Smt.Onakke Obbava. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.97.201.209 (talk) 19:09, 7 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Do you have any reliable sources that support your claims? The article is supposed to reflect what such sources say, not your personal knowledge. - Sitush (talk) 19:49, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

The main source is Vadakkan Pattukal. Nowhere in Vadakkan Pattukal it is given that Chekavars were Thiyyas or Ezhavas. Nowhere in the history of Kerala it is given that Nair women and Kovilakam women learned Kalarippayattu. In Tulu Nadu too Kaniyars were astrologers not preceptors of martial arts. Read the Census reports. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.247.177 (talk) 04:17, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Which census reports? The Raj era ones are not reliable. Can you give me any links where these things might be available on the web? - Sitush (talk) 04:48, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Why Raj era census reports are not reliable? Because they expose the truth of Kaniyar community? In the Panicker article you have added a sentence of Duarte Berbosa's book. In the same book it is given that Kaniyars(Canyon) were the makers of hat and they predicted future accurately. Frankly speaking, I prefer to go to Brahmin astrologers because I have noticed that some Kaniyars are jealous of Nairs. For them spoiling the life of Nairs, Brahmins and members of Royal families is great thing. Such uncultured and shameless people they are. Census reports of Raj era are government documents. Indian historians too refer them to learn about castes.

From where did you get that Kaniyars were the preceptors of Kalarippayattu? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.247.177 (talk) 05:10, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * See User:Sitush/Common and Census of India prior to independence. We are not interested in your own habits and it really isn't a good idea to criticise castes on Wikipedia - it is a quick way to get blocked from contributing here. - Sitush (talk) 05:42, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I have adjusted the article but still cannot see a mention of Nair, so I am not even sure what your issue may be. Please note that your speculation of a Tulu Bunt origin appears to be just that, speculation. We can only say what reliable sources say, even when it gets confusing as it does in this article. Help in sorting out the confusion would be great but you have to provide decent sources. - Sitush (talk) 06:00, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

I didn't say that there is a mention about Nairs in this article. In Vadakkan Pattukal it is given Smt.Unniyarcha and brother Shri.Aromal Chekavar learned Kalarippayattu in Tulu Nadu. Nairs and Royal families had their own separate Kalaris like Kadathanadan Kalari, Kodungallur Kalari etc. Like Tulu Bunts, Chekavars also taught martial arts to their women. I don't think Chekavars belonged to Thiyya or Ezhava community. There is no proof for it but in my opinion, they were a separate warrior community. Similarly, there is no proof for that Chekavars were Thiyyas or Ezhavas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.247.177 (talk) 07:39, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Ah, I must have misread you. But as far as the Chekavar/Thiyya/Ezhava connection goes, please note that we have to reflect what reliable sources say. And the sources cited in the article do connect the three names. If you can find a source that says they are not connected then that could be added but we can't remove what is there just because you do - see WP:NPOV. As for the Tulu thing, well, again we need a decent source that says so. - Sitush (talk) 07:59, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Sitush, I am not forcing anyone to make changes in this article. I only said my opinion that Chekavars were not Thiyyas or Ezhavas. There are communities called Thiyya(Belchada) and Billava(Illava) in Dakshina Kannada. I don't think the their ancestors were allowed to learn Kalaripayattu in Tulunadan Kalari. You are talking as if you know everything about southern Indian castes. From which reliable source you got that Kaniyars were the preceptors of Kalarippayattu? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.247.177 (talk) 08:46, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

What habits Sitush? Everyone has the right to share their opinion in the talk page. You are talking as if Wikipedia is your personal property. Some Kaniyars are the most poison-minded people in Kerala. I don't give any importance to Wikipedia articles. One thing is sure, you have strong infiority complex. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.247.177 (talk) 08:56, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The article does not mention Kanniyars, so that seems to be irrelevant. This page is for discussion of improvements to this article, not some other article or for just venting an unsubstantiated opinion. I am not Indian and have no association with any caste, so I doubt that I have an inferiority complex about it. - Sitush (talk) 09:06, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Sitush, if you don't know about Indian castes then you should not write about it. It will create a lot of disputes. Why you are making money by creating such disputes? You should make an Indian as the editor of articles related to India. Right from our childhood we learn about different castes. Every caste has it's own customs and traditions. As I said before, I don't give importance to articles of Wikipedia. When I was a student I used visit this website a lot. But now I don't trust it anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.247.177 (talk) 09:58, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I am not making money, and I do have a fair amount of knowledge of the subject plus, of course, I read the sources. You can do the same. - Sitush (talk) 11:49, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * No, IP 59.xx, everyone does not have the right to share any kinds of opinions on the talk page. Talkpages are not for caste propaganda or for personal attacks ("you have strong infiority complex", "why you are making money"), any more than articles are. You will be blocked for disruptive editing if you persist in these kinds of posts. And please sign your posts like other people do, with four tildes ~ . That will turn into a signature and timestamp when you save. (I would give you these warnings on your personal talkpage, except that since you post from fluctuating IPs, you don't have one.) Bishonen &#124; talk 12:32, 8 October 2018 (UTC).