Talk:Chen-style tai chi

Irrelevant Link
In the first paragraph there is a sentance: "The five traditional family styles tend to retain the original martial applicability of tai chi teaching methods." The word "martial" links to a poet rather than any kind of discussion of the martial arts.

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Old romanization and expansion
I know you guys want to keep main TaiJiQuan article in old romanization.

The Chen styles is relative new to the west, and most new literature is in PinYin. Unless you all wildly complain I will be using that to explain alot of things.

And allready alot of temrs in the article is in PinYin like Chenjiagou, henan etc.

I am going to expand this article greatly, and make more emphasis on the style and less on the persons who teach it and their lineage. It will be an too great task to find old romanization for all the chinese expressions. This should not be an article for curious Yang stylists(as I feel it is now) only, but a general article about the Chen martial art styles.

A human 04:28, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, I started it a long time ago, hoping a Chen stylist would come along and fill it out a bit. I'm a Wu stylist, though, myself, so it would be great to get some first hand input. While technical info would be interesting, we have to remember what What Wikipedia is not, and not get too much like an instruction manual. Biographies of famous Chen family teachers would be very welcome at the redlinks in the article, too. Cheers! --Fire Star 05:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

This has been discussed at length here: Talk:T'ai chi ch'uan. Unfortunately the consensus was not reached to move to pinyin (taijiquan), as most other Chinese martial arts have done. This is because although most well learned practitioners and professionals of the martial art refer to it in the pinyin form, the majority of references to it are still in the Wade-Giles form. Consensus was thus reached to at least use the accurate Wade-Giles form, if at all, since the spelling "tai chi chuan" is too ambiguous as in turn one could, for example, also write "chi" (for "qi") instead of "ch'i", and making it appear to be the "chi" in the name (tai chi chuan), etc. This consensus has allowed for correctness while following WP guidelines of adopting the most common usage. In turn, in all related articles it's to be made immediately clear that "t'ai chi ch'uan" is interchangeable with "taijiquan" (eg writing "t'ai chi ch'uan (taijiquan)" or "taijiquan (t'ai chi ch'uan"), while on the t'ai chi ch'uan page, a write-up is going to be made to reflect that officially, taijiquan is preferred. For the sake of avoiding unnecessary fragmentation, all the family styles are being renamed to "t'ai chi ch'uan" as well. The shift of common usage is slowing moving toward pinyin and in time the change will be made to it, but for now the current usage in it's correct form is what seems best to use and, of course, to avoid confusion through naming fragmentation, it's best to have all sub-pages in-line with the main t'ai chi ch'uan page. I hope this doesn't upset anyone and you all understand the necessity for the current position that has been taken. InferKNOX (talk) 18:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

External links that promote organizations
There are 3 link now, they all go to association homepages. Allthough those pages have some info on style and history they are plastered with commercials to buy courses, books and DVDs. And also to show how great their particular teachers are. I am going to remove them all and replace them with links to sites that write about the styles not the people who train them.

A human 05:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Variants
I am initially going to add the list of variants to the main article, but I feel they should later be expanded and put in seperate articles.

A human 05:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * im pretty sure there are other forms in chen style taiji quan. They are not as popular and historical as the main forms explained here, but perhaps we could list them here as just a generic list of other forms much as has been done with the weapons --Blckavnger 17:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

What other forms are you talking about? VanTucky 00:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * in particular i was thinking of the 38 section form supposdly created by Chen Xiaowang combining xin jia and lao jia movements. Also there are competition forms that are standarized in some parts of the world.  However, since i do not know how much they are practiced im not sure if it should be included.  I am most familiar with lao jia and i know the 38 section.  i do not know if the 38 is practiced enough to be listed; i dont think there should be a description, just a mention along with competition forms (with a little note that they are not traditional).  --Blckavnger 17:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Similar to the original tai chi article, I added a "modern forms" section. This can be added on to include any shortened or competition forms. though the article should continue to focus on chen family (and their disciples) teachings, just like how yang style page focuses on the yang family origins. VanTucky 19:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

HuLeiJia 忽雷架(Sudden Thunder Form) created based on ZhaoBaoJia is also a variant which may be found in Taiwan (Only recently appear in Main land China). This art is lost in China during the Cultural revolution. I think it was created by Master Li Jin Yan (Student of Master Chen Qin Ping).

At what point does a sub-style break off and become a recongnized sub-style, rather than the particular take on the same teachings by a certain teacher? Is it simply the act of a particular teacher breaking away and declaring a new style? Back in the day, there was no video recording or youtube, so there must have been a lot of divergence simply because it was impossible to set a benchmark. But now we should be able to document the current state of the art, and comment on future variations, and reference archive material in articles. danielpoon

The Xin Yi Hun Yuan section seem too big, and out of place. It is listed along side sub headings, such as 'The Xiao jia Tradition'. If I understand it correctly, Xin Yi Hun Yuan is still part of the Xin Jia style, and does not warrent an entry. Im pretty new to wikipedia, so I don't know if I should just go and delete it. Im going to move it into a sub-heading under 'Xin jia'. daniel poon
 * At this point, Hunyuan Taiji is a pretty distinct style, with higher stances and more emphasis on internal cultivation over weapons and martial application. I think is till deserves a section.Herbxue (talk) 05:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The Chenjiaguo people
I do realise that the Chenjiaguo people like Chen Bing, Ren Guangyi and Chen Xiaoxing are very visible in the US., has published many english language books and websites. But in China they are not considered anything special. So there is no reason to call Chen Xiaowang: "the standard-bearer for the Chen family's 19th generation" and similar propaganda. Repeating it a thousand times does not make it so. A human 15:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually they are quite well thought of in china. The four tigers/buddas draw huge crowds at there seminars. They all posess high official rank within the national martial ranking system. Chen Bin (chen zhenglei's son)told me they enjoy celebrity status in china. The billboards showing the group of them in varous postures that take up 3 to 5 stories of space seem to bear this out (yes I saw this with my own eyes when visiting). However, I agree with you on the standard-bearer nonesense. mlmalone 19:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Its is also regional. China is a big place. For example, in Beijing where Wushu is big, Chen Village may have such a big name. Resident Beijing Tai Chi experts will tend to get more press there. Regarding standard bearer - there are two aspects. One is that the standard bearer should be the most skillful person of their generation. The other is the position of that person within the socio-political organization that is the traditional Chinese family. We are all going to have differing opinions about who has the best skill, but the position held in the family by certain Chen Village names is pretty clear. I was in Chen Village for a year, and in my time there, there was a large ceremony at Chen Fake's grave. The person leading that ceremony was the so-called 'standard-bearer', though I don't know if he uses that name himself danielpoon 22:31, 5 March 2007

No mention of silk reeling
We've got a mention weapons....  But shouldn't we also say something like "[Chen style] places special emphasis on the silk reeling Chi-gung exercise set to strengthen the body"?

Also, should we include something like "[Chen style] is the most external of the internal t'ai chi styles, with many martial applications of the forms obvious to complete beginners to a greater extent than other t'ai chi styles."?

Triponi 13:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC) $$Insert formula here$$

First, an internal art is an internal art because it trains the internal chi (I don't remember what the exact classification of this chi is). This means that an art either is internal or is not internal no degrees. Second, if you are focused in on the obvious application then you have missed dozens of other in the same move. mlmalone 19:30, 1 march 2007 (UTC)

Yang and Chen
So I guess I am yang stylist somewhat confused by the chen claim to be the original form, i always understood that the yang family practised a guarded internal style that was very effective and a servant learned by stealth and he was allowed to teach to the ROW? Correct me if i am wrong?
 * The one thing most agree on is that Yang Luchan learned from Chen Changxing starting around 1820 or so. There are many legendary stories about that process, with actual surviving records of Yang's career dating from 1850 or so, when Yang began teaching the Manchu Imperial family and bannermen in Beijing. --Fire Star 火星 01:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

new section
I created a new section discussing martial application. I tried to keep it down to why Chen tai chi focuses on self-defense and what general types of technique are used commonly. Feel free to expand it of course, but I hope we can keep from getting into "how-to guide" territory in describing techniques. VanTucky 20:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Form Confusion
There seems to be some confusion in regards to "Old Frame" Form for with "New Frame" and "Cannon Fist" form. From what I understand "New Frame" and "Cannon Fist" are NOT the same form.

The Video Example section on the unarmed forms has to be reorganized. Its simply mismatched and confusing.

-Bill

January 4, 2007

The organization is correct: The old and new traditions both have a second form nicknamed cannonfist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.195.19.41 (talk) 20:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Removal of a Section of The Chen Family Origin Story
The following information is removed because it represent original research "Additional information has recently come to light regarding a possible connection to the brothers "Li" who were sworn brothers of a religious order along with Chen Wangting. They are all said to have learned various martial and health arts at the temple they attended. The three of them are credited in the Li family history with having created a practice system called, "Taiji Yang Sheng Gong", meaning "Taiji" (yin-yang flux) life energy cultivation practice approximately. They were said to have begun to tech this to students saying they could be come lions or tigers at their will; Probably meaning the road to martial art skill would be open to them. As with much of this type of regional Chinese history, nothing is absolutely certain, but the Li family even though not too far from Chen Jiagou does not retain any martial arts at this time." I could not find any reference to this information. Please add the appropiate information if you want to put this informaton back into the article. ottawakungfu (talk) 13:29, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The following references can be used if you want to re-insert this interesting research:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle30.htm

http://www.literati-tradition.com/chen_camp.html

Blue Horizen (talk) 08:50, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Reference to Chen Changxing or Chen Wanting
While improving the readability of the second paragraph in "Other Origin Stories", I see that the point is made that Jiang Fa may or may not have been connected to Chen Changxing. However, the closing sentence kills this argument by saying that there is no evidence that Jiang Fa and Chen Wangting were connected. Wait a moment here: wasn't the text talking about Chen Changxing?? So I took the liberty to change Chen Wanting to Chen Changxing.

Can anybody confirm that this is a good change?  Bruno talk  20:16, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Good work but the relationship is between Jiang Fa and Chen Wanting. I have corrected the paragraph and added the reference. Thnkx ottawakungfu (talk) 21:07, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, thanks. The old narrative was really muddled.  The new one makes things explicit and clear.  Bruno  talk  20:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Improving lineage trees
I'm working hard on improving the lineage trees for the main taijiquan page and for all the family style pages. Please comment on the this tree where you feel improvements can be made and help me by posting information on individuals that aught to be included in the tree and the reason for their significance so that a detailed Chen-style tree can be produced. All individuals to be added that are approved upon (via consensus of course) will be added, unless they threaten to make the tree excessively large whilst adding little value to the overall tree.

The tree on the main page is to focus on the gate keepers of the styles in order to show each family style's lineage without making it excessively large, while the trees on the family style pages are to be more focused on the particular styles, showing a more in depth view of it's development & connection to other family styles. I hope to hear from as many of you as possible & will continue making edits to the tree here as feedback comes in. Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 22:36, 17 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks to the help of many individuals (outside of Wiki) and research on my part, I've hugely increased the size of the Chen-style tree. Please review it and comment on any errors, improvements or other amendments that should be made. Thanks. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 15:53, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * With assistance from shifu Chen Bing & shifu Chen Xiaoxing, I think this is ready, unless there is contestation here. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 14:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If you want, you can complete Tian Xiuchen's lineage with his disciples: Ding Dahong (1936), Tian Qiutian (1933), Tian Qiumao (1945) and Tian Qiuxin (1942). Tian Qiutian's lineage continues with [Wang Xiaojun] (1968), and Wang Xiaojun's lineage continues with Félix Castellanos (1965) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmanuelem (talk • contribs) 04:43, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits by Leon taichi
Please can someone review the validity of the recent edits made by User:Leon taichi, especially the added "Places to go" section. I've manually undone and corrected some of their edits. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment on Grandmaster Ma Hong
On David Gaffney's Blog I read that Grandmaster Ma Hong passed away last month. So he sadly doesn't fit into the list of "Other well known Chen teachers active in China or overseas"

Removed section
My comments -

I have removed this section -

"==== Big frame/small frame split ==== Around the time of the 14–15th generation, Chen Village practice is said by some to have differentiated into two related but distinct practice traditions, which are today known as big frame (sometimes called large frame) and small frame. The various practise routines embodied in big/small frame traditions modified and assimilated Chen Wangting's seven set corpus and the original practice routines are now said to have been lost. (Though recent claims are being made that Chen Wangting's 108 form has been rediscovered from two possible sources: senior Beijing disciples of Chen Zhaokui; Chen relatives back in Shanxi Province)

There are conflicting claims about which of these two traditions came first. Western theories and most of the famous masters from Chen Village (see Chen Zhenglei's English language book) tend to favor the view that big frame tradition came first (noting that "small frame" tradition was originally called "new frame"). There is a minority view from outside of Chen Village that tend to favor the reverse view.

There are also conflicting stories about the reason for the differentiation into these two traditions. Zhu Tian Cai comments that small frame tradition routines tended to be practiced by "retired" Chen villagers (and mimicked by younger children). It seems this was because the more demanding leaping, stomping, low frame, and intensive Fa jin of the advanced big frame tradition routines have been eliminated and the retained movements emphasize the training of the soft internal skills. Keep in mind that this is only a tendency and a master of the principles may use them to add fa jing, leaping, stomping, and low frame back to the small tradition at will. Just as a master of the large frame can perform the set small, large, smoothly, with fa jing in every movement, low, middle, or high. The traditions are only significantly different because the elder practitioners tend to focus on longevity and may develop injuries if they practice in the same manner as the younger practitioners.

Other authors, however, say that "big" does not simply mean large exaggerated outer movements and nor does "small" simply mean confined/close outer movements. They argue that in small frame both large and small motions are used—with the smaller motions considered to be more advanced. It is also useful to frame the discussion in terms of human physiology. The large and small frame traditions have similar training methods and are training the same tai chi principles (clear movement of qi, shifting the weight, relaxation, etc.) it is only the external presentation that confuses beginners.

In the book "Chen Style: The Source of Taijiquan" the explanation is given that both the large and small frames were developed at the same time, by two related masters, as distillations and simplifications of the existing routines.

Keep in mind throughout this discussion that no literature of Chen-style before 1932 appears to mention anything about New, old, big or small styles. As with so much of Tai Chi history complete comprehension and certainty is hard to find.

It is important to understand that currently what is called "small frame" or "large frame" are not necessarily accurate representations of past practices, nor past labels. What we have now are actually separations of style, whereas the ideology of "small" and "large" frame originally referred to the relative size and method of movement practice within one style. This is to say that the size and method of practice could vary but the style itself was the same. In today's versions of what is often called small and large, the major difference is that of style and method, which are radically different even down to the basics. Regardless of stylistic divergence or political factions, the original concept of large and small frame practice within any one stylistic method still exists in modern Chen Taijiquan methods."

- Cannot source or reference any of those statements - most of the text is considered to me personal opinion. - so I cannot incorporate this text without compromising the structure of the article.

ottawakungfu (talk) 00:12, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I have modified this section due to the same considerations as above. I have replaced it with text that is more concise and have external references.

Big frame tradition

Chen family traditions were kept secret from the public until around 1928 when the big frame routines were taught openly for the first time. This was started in Beijing by Chen Fake's nephew and then by the legendary Chen Fake himself.

Big frame encompasses the methods handed down from the late Chen Zhaopei, which came to be called "old frame" by Chen village residents in the 1970s, the reason being that it was all that generation had been exposed to in the village due to the line of Chen Fake having been in Beijing for decades. This method from Chen Zhaopei was not called "old" until Chen Zhaokui was called back to the village to teach due to a fear of the art dying out in the village after the death of Chen Zhaopei. At this time the locals of that generation being newly exposed to the methods of Chen Fa Ke through his son Chen Zhaokui reasonably saw it as "new", to them.

Regarding currently popular labels, between "laojia" (old frame) and "xinjia" (new frame), which one is actually older is questionable at best. So-called new frame is also said by some lines to contain very old methods that were not present outside of the leading family line of Chen Fa Ke.

Big frame encompasses the classic "old frame" (lao jia) routines, one and two, which are very well known today. It also includes the "new frame" (xin jia) routines, one and two, which some say evolved from the classic Old Way/Frame routines thanks to the work of Chen Fake in Beijing in his later years (1950s).

Xin yi hun yuan tai chi is an offshoot of the new frame (xin jia) tradition and blends in material from Feng Zhiqiang's Xing Yi background.

Lao jia – old frame

The Chen lao jia (old frame; 老架) consists of two forms yi lu (1st routine) and er lu (2nd routine) It was taught privately in Chen Village from the time of Chen ChangXing—the 14th generation creator of these routines. These were the very first Chen tai chi routines to be publicly revealed. This happened in Beijing from 1928 onwards—being taught by Chen Fake and his nephew.

Yi lu (the first empty hand form) at the beginner level is mostly done slowly with large motions interrupted by occasional expressions of fast power (Fa jing) that comprise less than 20% of the movements, with the overall purpose of teaching the body to move correctly. At the intermediate level it is practiced in very low stances (low frame) with an exploration of clear directional separation in power changes and in speed tempo. The movements become smaller and the changes in directional force become more subtle. At the advanced level the leg strength built at the previous level allows full relaxation and the potential for Fajing in every movement.

The second empty hand form, "er lu" or "cannon fist" is done faster and is used to add more advanced martial techniques such as advanced sweeping and more advanced fajing methods. Both forms also teach various martial techniques.

ottawakungfu (talk) 20:05, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

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Potential renaming under discussion
Editors interested in this topic are politely asked to participate in the discussion here: Talk:Tai chi. SilverStar54 (talk) 06:21, 12 June 2023 (UTC)