Talk:Chen Jiongming

Untitled
"His legacy has been much maligned and twisted by both the KMT and the CCP." Need to expand on this if it is to be kept in the bio. Betraying the Chinese revolution seems pretty bad to me, unless he had some pretty good reasons.Asiaticus 06:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

He was a founder & leader of the revolution. He didn't betray it. The faction that he was part of just didn't win. And the winners write history.

The revolution was alway more than those "Big Three" (Sun Yat-sen, Chiang Kai-shek & Mao Tse-tung) And it continues!


 * Actually, Chen has been pretty much written out of the history books in both Chinas. He was an ardent constitutionalist and proponent of the electoral process, based loosely on the American model.  One of his sons and his wife, daughter of a former Postmaster General of China, both studied in and eventually emigrated to the United States, where the son did extensive research in the National Archives on the June 6 incident of 1925, when Chen was essentially ousted from power in Guangdong, during a putsch by the KMT aided by the government of the Soviet Union.  This was the period when Chen attempted to enlist the aid of the Chinese Communist Party, who were anti-Soviet in their leanings, and a couple of years later subjected to the same treatment by the KMT in Shanghai.Euonyman (talk) 21:41, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

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Requested move 11 September 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Chen Jiongming → Chen Chiung Ming –
 * 1) Chen was a well known politician of Kwangtung in early 20th century. He was known as Chen Chiung Ming in contemporary newspapers. Search chiung ming in https://mmis.hkpl.gov.hk/web/guest/old-hk-collection and you will find plenty of examples.
 * 2) Google (chen chiung ming site:nytimes.com) vs (jiongming site:nytimes.com).
 * 3) In his son's donation to Columbia Uni, he was referred to as such too.
 * 4) Pinyin was formalised long after Chen's death. Roy17 (talk) 17:35, 11 September 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. A1Cafel (talk) 02:57, 29 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:PINYIN and WP:COMMONNAME. We follow modern spelling conventions, not historical ones. Even though "Chen Chiung-ming" (note the hyphen) was used predominantly during his life time, since the adoption of pinyin as the ISO standard for Chinese romanization in the early 1980s, "Chen Jiongming" has been dominant in the past four decades. See Google Ngram. -Zanhe (talk) 18:04, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Chen has a a more common romanization used in English, and his family use a non-pinyin romanization. These make the exception per Naming_conventions_(Chinese) and the links you quoted, just like many other Category:Republic of China politicians from Guangdong. In Google Ngram results, pay attention to throughout the past 100 years how more frequently used is Chen Chiung-ming (with and without hyphens combined) than pinyin. It also shows people continue to use Chen Chiung-ming despite a surge in pinyin results. Both names are commonly used nowadays, but the non-pinyin name has been so since 1920s.--Roy17 (talk) 18:41, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The rule is to use the most common name in modern reliable sources, which, as shown in Ngram, is the pinyin spelling (the family's preference is not relevant). Names of Taiwanese and Hong Kong people are often romanized differently, usually using Wade-Giles and Cantonese, but Chen Jiongming had his entire career in mainland China. -Zanhe (talk) 08:23, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * As shown in google ngram, both names are used and throughout history Chen Chiung-ming is the more common one. His name had been recorded in so many English sources 90 years ago, including American and British ones, that it should not be overriden by a then non-existent romanisation. Plus, the use-non-pinyin rule is not restricted to Taiwan or Hong Kong.--Roy17 (talk) 10:44, 30 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Possible Rewrite?
Hello, I have been thinking of doing a rewrite/expansion of this page due to things I have read from Chen Jiongming and the Federalist Movement and Chinese-language sources. I feel like the wiki page barely scratches the surface and has created some misinterpretations in some communities I am in. As I'm new, I want to check if I would be breaking any rules by doing so and if I have a go-ahead if necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roniius (talk • contribs) 05:30, 27 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Be WP:BOLD and improve it; just make sure you cite reliable sources. The article quality is quite poor and any help is welcome. -Zanhe (talk) 08:16, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

This man looks Eurasian
On the photo given as the likeness of this man, he looks quite Eurasian, as if at least one of his grandparents, if not even one of his parents, was Caucasian and not East Asian. Do we have any data about that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.191.150 (talk) 05:18, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Undefined sources
Hi @Roniius, what is "NP 1957"? It isn't defined as a source since you added it in special:diff/920003982. czar 06:05, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Czar, I don't really remember, actually. This was quite a while back. I think it may be me using the reference cited in the original source I used, which I also don't remember. Roniius  talk to me 05:20, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Roniius, ah, if that's the case, looks like those subcitations might be coming from Chen 1999. But I think we'd want to cite the secondary source rather than the primary source as an encyclopedia. czar  11:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Czar; @Roniius: I've just gone through Chen 1999 and cited each of the pages for it, most of this information comes from chapters one and two. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Great! I had started last night but lost steam. :) Did you verify the material too or just replace the in-source refs with the Chen page the ref appeared? When I started it didn't appear that the content necessarily matched the source's internally cited section.
 * Also it looks like ref#1 is also Chen 1999 and can move to the page citation format. I have a physical copy if needed for verification. czar  13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I just replaced the refs I'm afraid. I verified bits and pieces but didn't have the energy to verify the entire text. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:14, 28 June 2024 (UTC)